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Old 07-09-2017, 05:19 PM   #1
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Default America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspe...or-most-people

Quote:
America is not one country anymore. It is becoming two, each with vastly different resources, expectations, and fates.
[...]
The two sectors, notes Temin, have entirely distinct financial systems, residential situations, and educational opportunities. Quite different things happen when they get sick, or when they interact with the law. They move independently of each other. Only one path exists by which the citizens of the low-wage country can enter the affluent one, and that path is fraught with obstacles. Most have no way out.

[...]

In the developing countries Lewis studied, people try to move from the low-wage sector to the affluent sector by transplanting from rural areas to the city to get a job. Occasionally it works; often it doesn’t. Temin says that today in the U.S., the ticket out is education, which is difficult for two reasons: you have to spend money over a long period of time, and the FTE sector is making those expenditures more and more costly by defunding public schools and making policies that increase student debt burdens.

[...]

The dual economy didn’t happen overnight, says Temin. The story started just a couple of years after the ’67 Summer of Love. Around 1970, the productivity of workers began to get divided from their wages. Corporate attorney and later Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell galvanized the business community to lobby vigorously for its interests. Johnson’s War on Poverty was replaced by Nixon’s War on Drugs, which sectioned off many members of the low-wage sector, disproportionately black, into prisons. Politicians increasingly influenced by the FTE sector turned from public-spirited universalism to free-market individualism. As money-driven politics accelerated (a phenomenon explained by the Investment Theory of Politics, as Temin explains), leaders of the FTE sector became increasingly emboldened to ignore the needs of members of the low-wage sector, or even to actively work against them.
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Old 07-09-2017, 05:44 PM   #2
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Default here come the nutjobs, I just know it

people that will vote for leaders who are the personal embodiment of such agendas
dont help themselves much and the leaders responsible for implementing
these policies are determined to not even allow that low level of relief.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:47 PM   #3
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Default

The Fact that so many vote for the same people over and over again, believing the lies, thinking this time they will be better is a large part of the problem. But so are the action of the people in this nation.

The article speaks about employment and education opportunities, but fails to address all of the problems. It easy to blame faceless Lobbyists and those that take there money, but in truth that are far from the only part of the problem. And looking to a government to fix a problem that is cased partly by the government is never going to be a solution.

I am working as an educator. I have seen way too many student to feel that you just sit in a chair for two to four years, you are handed a degree, and you are suppose to get a good job, and then are shocked to find out that their failure to actually try at school means there is no job waiting.

The same is true, for those that have little or no skills, and are up set over the lack of jobs, or the lack of good paying jobs. The same people who stand in line, and will trample others to be first in the door at Walmart on Black Friday for the Door Buster Sales! So they can buy more cheep Chinese made crap! They traded a job, finical security, and retirement for a PlayStation 4, but refuse to see that. And in fact can't see it, because article like this try to confidence them it always someone else fault! Never theirs!!!
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Old 07-09-2017, 10:38 PM   #4
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Default

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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
And in fact can't see it, because article like this try to confidence them it always someone else fault! Never theirs!!!
Not really. It's just talking about the statistical obstacles faced by the impoverished class, and says not a Goddamn thing about any personal choices they may make. You can howl all you like about cultural failings and people not wanting to try, but when people do try, these are the problems they have to deal with, and these are the problems we need to fix as a society.
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Old 07-09-2017, 11:22 PM   #5
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
And in fact can't see it, because article like this try to confidence them it always someone else fault! Never theirs!!!
Not really. It's just talking about the statistical obstacles faced by the impoverished class, and says not a Goddamn thing about any personal choices they may make. You can howl all you like about cultural failings and people not wanting to try, but when people do try, these are the problems they have to deal with, and these are the problems we need to fix as a society.

First off reading between the lines of the original one can see it is yet another call for Socialism, and well this is not a socialism nation. If you want socialism so bad, move to where it exists. And before you say that can't because they don't have the money, many people have and still do come to the U.S. far far less then most of the "impoverished class" in the U.S. today have!

As per everything else, who many of this "impoverished class" blinding vote for the Democratic party over and over, every election cycle? What have the dems actually done of the impoverished class? They don't even promise fix anything any more, they just say that the "evil Republicans" will try to make you slaves again!!!

The cost of education is high, I know that, I paid for my first two degree with loans, and paid for the entire cost of my master degree myself. I spend four and a half years going to school part time after working a 40++ hour a week job, to do such. So don't say it can't be done, BECAUSE I HAVE DONE IT!!!

How many of this "impoverished class" don't have a Xbox One or PlayStation 4? A new Smart Phone? A subscription to Cable TV or Netflix or both? Or many of the other things that they place a higher priority on then getting a education?

Finally, don't expect the government to fix your problems or the problems of the "impoverished class" for you, do something yourself!!! You want to see jobs created in America for Americans? That will happen the year after on Black Friday the stores open there doors and no one walk through them! THe December they retailers and "manufactures" get letters (real paper letters rather then Emails, because someone has to open sort and file letters), telling them that they woudl have bought there products if they were made in the U.S. and there CxO compensation was more reasonable! And come January 1st when those same retailers and manufactures have to pay Inventory Tax on all those thing that did not sell!!! That is when things will change! All without resorting to Socialism!
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Last edited by iron_warmonger : 07-11-2017 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:51 AM   #6
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Not really. It's just talking about the statistical obstacles faced by the impoverished class, and says not a Goddamn thing about any personal choices they may make. You can howl all you like about cultural failings and people not wanting to try, but when people do try, these are the problems they have to deal with, and these are the problems we need to fix as a society.

First off reading between the lines of the original one can see it is yet another call for Socialism, and well this is not a socialism nation. If you want socialism so bad, move to where it exists. And before you say that can't because they don't have the money, many people have and still do come to the U.S. far far less then most of the "impoverished class" in the U.S. today have!
I'd appreciate it if you can explain how that article is calling for socialism, since to my reading it's not calling for anything more concrete than "Maybe things can stop being shitty".
Quote:
The cost of education is high, I know that, I paid for my first two degree with loans, and paid for the entire cost of my master degree myself. I spend four and a half years going to school part time after working a 40++ hour a week job, to do such. So don't say it can't be done, BECAUSE I HAVE DONE IT!!!
1. The question isn't just "Can it be done?", it's "Can we reasonably expect people to do it?". People can and have climbed Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen, but that doesn't mean we can expect you to go trotting 29,000 feet due up without a care in the world.
2) When did you do this? I ask because if you did this during the previous century, you probably had an easier time than students today.
Quote:
Finally, don't expect the government to fix your problems or the problems of the "impoverished class" for you, do something yourself!!! You want to see jobs created in American for Americans? That will happen the year after on Black Friday the stores open there doors and no one walk through them! THe December they retailers and "manufactures" get letters (real paper letters rather then Emails, because someone has to open sort and file letters), telling them that they woudl have bought there products if they were made in the U.S. and there CxO compensation was more reasonable! And come January 1st when those same retailers and manufactures have to pay Inventory Tax on all those thing that did not sell!!! That is when things will change! All without resorting to Socialism!
I would also greatly appreciate it if you can explain how this would solve the infrastructure problem the article points out, and which is supported by the American Society of Civil Engineers.
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Food stamps stimulate the economy, tax cuts don't, tax rates are at a historic low, welfare queens are either non-existent or embarrassingly near.
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger

First off reading between the lines of the original one can see it is yet another call for Socialism, and well this is not a socialism nation. If you want socialism so bad, move to where it exists. And before you say that can't because they don't have the money, many people have and still do come to the U.S. far far less then most of the "impoverished class" in the U.S. today have!
I'd appreciate it if you can explain how that article is calling for socialism, since to my reading it's not calling for anything more concrete than "Maybe things can stop being shitty".
Quote:
The cost of education is high, I know that, I paid for my first two degree with loans, and paid for the entire cost of my master degree myself. I spend four and a half years going to school part time after working a 40++ hour a week job, to do such. So don't say it can't be done, BECAUSE I HAVE DONE IT!!!
1. The question isn't just "Can it be done?", it's "Can we reasonably expect people to do it?". People can and have climbed Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen, but that doesn't mean we can expect you to go trotting 29,000 feet due up without a care in the world.
2) When did you do this? I ask because if you did this during the previous century, you probably had an easier time than students today.
Quote:
Finally, don't expect the government to fix your problems or the problems of the "impoverished class" for you, do something yourself!!! You want to see jobs created in American for Americans? That will happen the year after on Black Friday the stores open there doors and no one walk through them! THe December they retailers and "manufactures" get letters (real paper letters rather then Emails, because someone has to open sort and file letters), telling them that they woudl have bought there products if they were made in the U.S. and there CxO compensation was more reasonable! And come January 1st when those same retailers and manufactures have to pay Inventory Tax on all those thing that did not sell!!! That is when things will change! All without resorting to Socialism!
I would also greatly appreciate it if you can explain how this would solve the infrastructure problem the article points out, and which is supported by the American Society of Civil Engineers.


You cut off the part of iron's post that completely destroys your entire argument. This impoverished class you speak of. They have cars, tv, radios, video games, cell phones, internet, ect. That is not at all impoverished. That is a bunch of people whining because some one else has it better themselves. I love how you skip over this.

And lets get real darth if you want to taken seriously at all you will admit people's choices, and people pulling themselves up by the boot straps is just as important as providing help to them. Guess what I paid for college myself also. went to school anywhere from 6 hours to 10 hours depending on how many credits I took and then worked three different jobs in between to pay for it. Yes I had pell grants and scholarships to help, but it was a drop in the bucket, so it can be easily done. Then after school I continued to work two of the jobs I had school on top of the full time one I got, so I could buy house. I didn't get out of college and whine that no one wanted to pay me what I was worth. Simply people not taking self responsibility is a huge part of the current issues.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:57 AM   #8
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I think this article glazes over the impact of the family on these circumstances.

It describes the affluent sector as "They grow up with parents who read books to them, tutors to help with homework..."

It describes the remainder as "Family life is uncertain here; people often don’t partner for the long-term even when they have children."

These aren't small things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspe...or-most-people

Quote:
America is not one country anymore. It is becoming two, each with vastly different resources, expectations, and fates.
[...]
The two sectors, notes Temin, have entirely distinct financial systems, residential situations, and educational opportunities. Quite different things happen when they get sick, or when they interact with the law. They move independently of each other. Only one path exists by which the citizens of the low-wage country can enter the affluent one, and that path is fraught with obstacles. Most have no way out.

[...]

In the developing countries Lewis studied, people try to move from the low-wage sector to the affluent sector by transplanting from rural areas to the city to get a job. Occasionally it works; often it doesn’t. Temin says that today in the U.S., the ticket out is education, which is difficult for two reasons: you have to spend money over a long period of time, and the FTE sector is making those expenditures more and more costly by defunding public schools and making policies that increase student debt burdens.

[...]

The dual economy didn’t happen overnight, says Temin. The story started just a couple of years after the ’67 Summer of Love. Around 1970, the productivity of workers began to get divided from their wages. Corporate attorney and later Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell galvanized the business community to lobby vigorously for its interests. Johnson’s War on Poverty was replaced by Nixon’s War on Drugs, which sectioned off many members of the low-wage sector, disproportionately black, into prisons. Politicians increasingly influenced by the FTE sector turned from public-spirited universalism to free-market individualism. As money-driven politics accelerated (a phenomenon explained by the Investment Theory of Politics, as Temin explains), leaders of the FTE sector became increasingly emboldened to ignore the needs of members of the low-wage sector, or even to actively work against them.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
I think this article glazes over the impact of the family on these circumstances.

It describes the affluent sector as "They grow up with parents who read books to them, tutors to help with homework..."

It describes the remainder as "Family life is uncertain here; people often don’t partner for the long-term even when they have children."

These aren't small things.
They also note how necessary family is for education; unless you have people ready to help you financially and scholastically, you're going to suffer. You, on the other hand, are ignoring the impact circumstances have on the family, and that each problem feeds into the other.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:32 AM   #10
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Also, and sorry for the double post, but it just occurred to me that iron_warmonger was significantly more horrified at the article's suggestion that America become a socialist country, than at its argument that America is becoming a third-world country. Not going to debate that, just going to put it out there.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
Also, and sorry for the double post, but it just occurred to me that iron_warmonger was significantly more horrified at the article's suggestion that America become a socialist country, than at its argument that America is becoming a third-world country. Not going to debate that, just going to put it out there.

I am very much horrified by the idea of the U.S. become a third world nation, and I have been seeing slow slide into it my entire life. My comment about Socialism was if you really read the original article it is a paraphrasing, with a slightly more accurate use of current events, of the works of Marx. That was my point about it being a call (or a defense) for Socialism.
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:32 AM   #12
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Also, and sorry for the double post, but it just occurred to me that iron_warmonger was significantly more horrified at the article's suggestion that America become a socialist country, than at its argument that America is becoming a third-world country. Not going to debate that, just going to put it out there.

I am very much horrified by the idea of the U.S. become a third world nation, and I have been seeing slow slide into it my entire life. My comment about Socialism was if you really read the original article it is a paraphrasing, with a slightly more accurate use of current events, of the works of Marx. That was my point about it being a call (or a defense) for Socialism.
a) I didn't say you weren't horrified by the prospect of America backsliding like that, but your reaction wasn't "America isn't and shouldn't be a third world country", it was "America isn't and shouldn't be a socialist country".
b) I'd still appreciate that explanation, because by my reading it's just calling for welfare capitalism, and not any kind of socialism.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:19 AM   #13
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I am very much horrified by the idea of the U.S. become a third world nation, and I have been seeing slow slide into it my entire life. My comment about Socialism was if you really read the original article it is a paraphrasing, with a slightly more accurate use of current events, of the works of Marx. That was my point about it being a call (or a defense) for Socialism.
a) I didn't say you weren't horrified by the prospect of America backsliding like that, but your reaction wasn't "America isn't and shouldn't be a third world country", it was "America isn't and shouldn't be a socialist country".
b) I'd still appreciate that explanation, because by my reading it's just calling for welfare capitalism, and not any kind of socialism.

I would still like to know how America is becoming a third world country. Is it because the person sitting on welefare only has a Samsung 5, instead of the Samsung 8. Because honestly that is what your argument sounds like.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:27 AM   #14
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Just to point something out though, the article says the ticket out is education. That is not so much true anymore. The white collar job is dead. Blue collar is moving into the place of white collar. Which looks horrible to current generation as they want cushy jobs that pay well. But the reality is the jobs that people looked down their nose at are now the high paying jobs. So again I will repeat this is just a bunch of people whining.

To back what I'm saying I heard on the radio today a call for applicants to be contractors. Starting wage 34 dollars an hour. No experience required. That a hell of lot better than 100k in tution bills and flipping burgers.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:08 PM   #15
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Just to point something out though, the article says the ticket out is education. That is not so much true anymore. The white collar job is dead. Blue collar is moving into the place of white collar. Which looks horrible to current generation as they want cushy jobs that pay well. But the reality is the jobs that people looked down their nose at are now the high paying jobs. So again I will repeat this is just a bunch of people whining.

To back what I'm saying I heard on the radio today a call for applicants to be contractors. Starting wage 34 dollars an hour. No experience required. That a hell of lot better than 100k in tution bills and flipping burgers.

If White collar jobs are dead, how many MBA's and CxO's are lining up for those contractor jobs? Please give us a running total? The reality is I worked hard for my degrees (a hell of a harder them most, and despite all the obsticals put in my way, and the extra years I took I did achieve them), and I am not 22, I am 48, and in rather poor health because I what I have had to go through. I could not work a contractor job, it would kill me at this stage of my life. So what am I to do? Die, because Mr. Gate needs another billion? I though Hard Work was suppose to pay off? What happened to the American Dream? If it is deal, why shouldn't we put it killers and their loved ones into the ground with it?
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:04 PM   #16
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Just to point something out though, the article says the ticket out is education. That is not so much true anymore. The white collar job is dead. Blue collar is moving into the place of white collar. Which looks horrible to current generation as they want cushy jobs that pay well. But the reality is the jobs that people looked down their nose at are now the high paying jobs. So again I will repeat this is just a bunch of people whining.

To back what I'm saying I heard on the radio today a call for applicants to be contractors. Starting wage 34 dollars an hour. No experience required. That a hell of lot better than 100k in tution bills and flipping burgers.

If White collar jobs are dead, how many MBA's and CxO's are lining up for those contractor jobs? Please give us a running total? The reality is I worked hard for my degrees (a hell of a harder them most, and despite all the obsticals put in my way, and the extra years I took I did achieve them), and I am not 22, I am 48, and in rather poor health because I what I have had to go through. I could not work a contractor job, it would kill me at this stage of my life. So what am I to do? Die, because Mr. Gate needs another billion? I though Hard Work was suppose to pay off? What happened to the American Dream? If it is deal, why shouldn't we put it killers and their loved ones into the ground with it?


Proably zero MBA's CxO's are lining up. Unemployed college graduates are likely the ones lining up for them.

Lots of people have worked hard for their degree's. Most people don't even use their degree's after a short time. People now average six careers in a lifetime. That's not possible if you went back to school for everyone of them. That is why blue collar is the big thing usually one year of tech school and your out make good money.

As for what are you supposed to do, simple get a blue collar job. Not all blue collar is labor intensive. Many times it is sitting back and running a piece of equipment or a machine.

As for blaming Bill gates that's just silly. Sometimes things just don't work out, you have to adapt and shift gears. My original goal was to restore cars, it wasn't working well, so I shifted gears and went into general repair. Then the place I worked for went out of business, so I agained shifted gears and opened my own business. I then got injured and have a hard time working, so I once again shifted gears I restructured the business and down sized down to something I could manage. Now I'm in a holding pattern to see what happens and then I'll start planning my next move. Life changes, if you don't roll with it you will be stuck behind.

You know its kinda like the farmer shaking his fist at the car dealer ship for selling cars, and ruining his horse sales. No matter how stubborn that farmer wanted to be obviously horse sales were not going to be the future in the 1900's.

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Old 07-11-2017, 11:45 PM   #17
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I am sorry, but I though you said "white color jobs are dead"? Did you or did you not say such? And are MBA's and CxO's white color jobs or not? Seams that if such job are dead should they be looking for new career paths as well?

Also if "white color jobs are dead" why to all 65,000 H1B visa get snapped up so far, aren't those for "while color" jobs?

Next, I though all the simple machine jobs when to Chain and other virtual slave labor nations? Now if you want to say such exists in America today, please show me the job that involved nothing more then pushing button on a machine and pays $40 per hour? If you saw such exists, then you should have no problem giving us a link for it?

Finally, who decided that "while color was dead"? The same people what sent million of Blue Color jobs over seas to line there own pockets at the expense of others? Sound a lot like what the English were doing in 1770's? Why should out solution today be any different then it was then?
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:50 AM   #18
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I am sorry, but I though you said "white color jobs are dead"? Did you or did you not say such? And are MBA's and CxO's white color jobs or not? Seams that if such job are dead should they be looking for new career paths as well?

Also if "white color jobs are dead" why to all 65,000 H1B visa get snapped up so far, aren't those for "while color" jobs?

Next, I though all the simple machine jobs when to Chain and other virtual slave labor nations? Now if you want to say such exists in America today, please show me the job that involved nothing more then pushing button on a machine and pays $40 per hour? If you saw such exists, then you should have no problem giving us a link for it?

Finally, who decided that "while color was dead"? The same people what sent million of Blue Color jobs over seas to line there own pockets at the expense of others? Sound a lot like what the English were doing in 1770's? Why should out solution today be any different then it was then?

Dead as in growth. The people that already have jobs will keep their jobs, the people looking for jobs will not find them as growth is dead.

As for H1b visa that's a whole argument in it self. Can you still call it a white collare job if the people coming in are working for less than the going rate. Many of the supposed white collar jobs they are claiming are not white collar jobs they are high paying blue collar jobs, ect, ect.

http://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=...llar+jobs&pn=2
Well there is a list that goes on for quite awhile, i'm sure you can find what your looking for in there.

That is one of the other reason blue collar is booming right now because majority of blue collar cannot be outsourced. Plunbers, contractors,auto techs, anything in the medical industry involving customers, ect,ect. So no not that much blue collar has been outsourced as you like to think.

And again your basing all the problems on excuses, H1b visa, greedy coporations. When simply that is just part of the work force. It always has been It may have been called different things, but the same basic concepts that you complain about have always been there. Technology replaced the milk man, the ice man, the door to door sales man, horse shoeers , black smiths, ect. It is simply change and you have to roll with it. There is many problems with our current import, export policies, but as an individual those wouldn't really affect the plans you should have to achieve the the money you want. Overal things need to change as the country is becoming a service industry country which will eventually make the country weak, but again that is also a completely different conversation.
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Old 07-12-2017, 01:22 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
I am sorry, but I though you said "white color jobs are dead"? Did you or did you not say such? And are MBA's and CxO's white color jobs or not? Seams that if such job are dead should they be looking for new career paths as well?

Also if "white color jobs are dead" why to all 65,000 H1B visa get snapped up so far, aren't those for "while color" jobs?

Next, I though all the simple machine jobs when to Chain and other virtual slave labor nations? Now if you want to say such exists in America today, please show me the job that involved nothing more then pushing button on a machine and pays $40 per hour? If you saw such exists, then you should have no problem giving us a link for it?

Finally, who decided that "while color was dead"? The same people what sent million of Blue Color jobs over seas to line there own pockets at the expense of others? Sound a lot like what the English were doing in 1770's? Why should out solution today be any different then it was then?

Dead as in growth. The people that already have jobs will keep their jobs, the people looking for jobs will not find them as growth is dead.

As for H1b visa that's a whole argument in it self. Can you still call it a white collare job if the people coming in are working for less than the going rate. Many of the supposed white collar jobs they are claiming are not white collar jobs they are high paying blue collar jobs, ect, ect.

http://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=...llar+jobs&pn=2
Well there is a list that goes on for quite awhile, i'm sure you can find what your looking for in there.

That is one of the other reason blue collar is booming right now because majority of blue collar cannot be outsourced. Plunbers, contractors,auto techs, anything in the medical industry involving customers, ect,ect. So no not that much blue collar has been outsourced as you like to think.

And again your basing all the problems on excuses, H1b visa, greedy coporations. When simply that is just part of the work force. It always has been It may have been called different things, but the same basic concepts that you complain about have always been there. Technology replaced the milk man, the ice man, the door to door sales man, horse shoeers , black smiths, ect. It is simply change and you have to roll with it. There is many problems with our current import, export policies, but as an individual those wouldn't really affect the plans you should have to achieve the the money you want. Overal things need to change as the country is becoming a service industry country which will eventually make the country weak, but again that is also a completely different conversation.


BANG!!!
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