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Old 04-21-2017, 06:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
That's not the important part of the question, though. If she doesn't have a First Amendment right to speak there, it doesn't matter whether the engagement was cancelled due to threats of violent protest, because the Young Republicans changed their minds, or because the UC Board of Regents was grumpy that morning.
A threat of violence always matters.
So does yielding to it.
Appeasement does not work. It only incites the aggressor into making further demands and there is already a tendency on the victims part to yield further.

'Peace for our time' stated British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain after yielding requested advantages to Germany. World War II followed.

We'll pay Danegeld to then Viking raiders. That will buy peace. The Vikings raided and took over the country.

We have freedom of speech you cry, but you're not willing to fight for it.
Oh, that only applies to government restrictions, you say. What a craven attitude. You either have free speech or you don't. While the left can shut down speakers under the threat of violence you don't have free speech. You have what speech they are willing to let you have.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:07 AM   #22
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Berkeley reverses decision to cancel speech by conservative pundit Ann Coulter
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
That's not the important part of the question, though. If she doesn't have a First Amendment right to speak there, it doesn't matter whether the engagement was cancelled due to threats of violent protest, because the Young Republicans changed their minds, or because the UC Board of Regents was grumpy that morning.
A threat of violence always matters.
So does yielding to it.
Appeasement does not work. It only incites the aggressor into making further demands and there is already a tendency on the victims part to yield further.

'Peace for our time' stated British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain after yielding requested advantages to Germany. World War II followed.

We'll pay Danegeld to then Viking raiders. That will buy peace. The Vikings raided and took over the country.

We have freedom of speech you cry, but you're not willing to fight for it.
Oh, that only applies to government restrictions, you say. What a craven attitude. You either have free speech or you don't. While the left can shut down speakers under the threat of violence you don't have free speech. You have what speech they are willing to let you have.
Except, y'know, they didn't shut her down, she was not silenced. She was simply prevented from speaking at UC Berkeley, which she has no Constitutionally protected right to do in any case.

Like, I know one of your big things is The New Left-Wing Fascism, but this isn't it. If protesters at Berkeley can get Liberty University or somebody equally right-wing to cancel an appearance by Mrs Coulter, you might have a point. If they can get her column/TV show/whatever other outlet she currently has shut down on a national scale, that might be fascism. This, though? This is merely no-platforming, and absolutely Constitutional.
E: Plus, as SilentBob pointed out, she has been un-shut-down, after she decided that she was going to speak anyway, whether or not she was welcome. Still think it's a bad idea, but can't say it's unreasonable.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
This is merely no-platforming, and absolutely Constitutional.
Constitutional? Please explain. Nowhere in your constitution can I find where it says it is acceptable to menace and threaten someone to get your way.

Just because something is constitutional doesn't mean it's right.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:48 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by garison808
He's saying that, because she still has a tongue, and still has her TV show, that her right to free speech was not violated. He's wrong, but that's what he's saying.
How am I wrong? The first amendment guarantees her right to speak her mind without fear of government censorship, it does not guarantee a right to a platform.

Wrong, part of free speech is that it does guarantee a platform. If a person from the left is allowed to speak, then a person from the right also has the right to speak. You need to brush up on your first admendmeant.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:56 AM   #26
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Let's say Liberty University wanted to invite Obama to speak. And, protesters threatened to do what they did out in Berkley and Liberty uninvited Obama...

You still going to say, "well, that's a bad idea but I can't say its unreasonable"?

LOL. Um, no.

I thought universities were supposed to be where students were able to get their mind opened? You know, listen to different points of view? Ha ha ha. It hasn't been like that in years. Lib professors vastly outnumber anyone remotely labeled conservative by almost 12-1. We send our kids to college and then get indoctrinated into "safe spaces" where they get to be in a left wing echo chamber and if anyone challenges that then they protest, riot and burn the motherfucker down.

Nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
A threat of violence always matters.
So does yielding to it.
Appeasement does not work. It only incites the aggressor into making further demands and there is already a tendency on the victims part to yield further.

'Peace for our time' stated British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain after yielding requested advantages to Germany. World War II followed.

We'll pay Danegeld to then Viking raiders. That will buy peace. The Vikings raided and took over the country.

We have freedom of speech you cry, but you're not willing to fight for it.
Oh, that only applies to government restrictions, you say. What a craven attitude. You either have free speech or you don't. While the left can shut down speakers under the threat of violence you don't have free speech. You have what speech they are willing to let you have.
Except, y'know, they didn't shut her down, she was not silenced. She was simply prevented from speaking at UC Berkeley, which she has no Constitutionally protected right to do in any case.

Like, I know one of your big things is The New Left-Wing Fascism, but this isn't it. If protesters at Berkeley can get Liberty University or somebody equally right-wing to cancel an appearance by Mrs Coulter, you might have a point. If they can get her column/TV show/whatever other outlet she currently has shut down on a national scale, that might be fascism. This, though? This is merely no-platforming, and absolutely Constitutional.
E: Plus, as SilentBob pointed out, she has been un-shut-down, after she decided that she was going to speak anyway, whether or not she was welcome. Still think it's a bad idea, but can't say it's unreasonable.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:20 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
This is merely no-platforming, and absolutely Constitutional.
Constitutional? Please explain. Nowhere in your constitution can I find where it says it is acceptable to menace and threaten someone to get your way.

Just because something is constitutional doesn't mean it's right.
Oh, of course, slavery was constitutional for a good long while, and arguably still is. But no, it's just what I've been saying, while Mrs Coulter has a right to speak her mind, the university and its student body has a right to say that she's not welcome to speak there.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
Let's say Liberty University wanted to invite Obama to speak. And, protesters threatened to do what they did out in Berkley and Liberty uninvited Obama...

You still going to say, "well, that's a bad idea but I can't say its unreasonable"?

LOL. Um, no.
Actually, the arguments I've been making would apply even more strongly to Obama being un-invited to Liberty U, since AFAIK that's an entirely private school, so you don't even get the whole "It took a taxpayer dollar so this is state censorship" angle.
E: I get what you're going for, and I wouldn't be nearly as sanguine about a speaker that I liked getting uninvited, but it still wouldn't be a violation of his free speech or any other constitutional rights.
Quote:
I thought universities were supposed to be where students were able to get their mind opened? You know, listen to different points of view? Ha ha ha. It hasn't been like that in years. Lib professors vastly outnumber anyone remotely labeled conservative by almost 12-1. We send our kids to college and then get indoctrinated into "safe spaces" where they get to be in a left wing echo chamber and if anyone challenges that then they protest, riot and burn the motherfucker down.

Nice.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
Oh, of course, slavery was constitutional for a good long while, and arguably still is. But no, it's just what I've been saying, while Mrs Coulter has a right to speak her mind, the university and its student body has a right to say that she's not welcome to speak there.
Indeed the university and the student body have a right to say she's not welcome. I do not dispute this.

However, the student body does NOT have the right to threaten and coerce the university. That coercion is one of the greatest threats to free speech that democracies are currently facing.
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:03 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
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Originally Posted by ASHSON
Constitutional? Please explain. Nowhere in your constitution can I find where it says it is acceptable to menace and threaten someone to get your way.

Just because something is constitutional doesn't mean it's right.
Oh, of course, slavery was constitutional for a good long while, and arguably still is. But no, it's just what I've been saying, while Mrs Coulter has a right to speak her mind, the university and its student body has a right to say that she's not welcome to speak there.


Wrong again the college would have to follow some pretty strict rules to keep her from speaking. They have not met criteria for it to be a private event. So by the constitution they have to let her speak. If one party is allowed a platform then they have to allow the other party a platform other wise they are breaking the first amendment
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ASHSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Oh, of course, slavery was constitutional for a good long while, and arguably still is. But no, it's just what I've been saying, while Mrs Coulter has a right to speak her mind, the university and its student body has a right to say that she's not welcome to speak there.
Indeed the university and the student body have a right to say she's not welcome. I do not dispute this.

However, the student body does NOT have the right to threaten and coerce the university. That coercion is one of the greatest threats to free speech that democracies are currently facing.
Apart from the fact that it's too limited to do a damn thing to harm freedom of expression, sure. Like I said, I get that your schtick is getting wildly outraged at liberals daring to exert influence, but you're wildly overstating the degree of this threat.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:12 AM   #32
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Apart from the fact that it's too limited to do a damn thing to harm freedom of expression, sure. Like I said, I get that your schtick is getting wildly outraged at liberals daring to exert influence, but you're wildly overstating the degree of this threat.
I am not wildly outraged at liberals exerting influence.
They are fully entitled to do that.
It's influence backed up by violence or the threat of violence that I object to.
If I'm overstating then threat of violence, how come the universities fall for it?
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:12 PM   #33
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The left wants a left wing echo chamber in their "safe" spaces. I get it.

These are the places we deem "the best and brightest" in which to educate future leaders. LOL

Sad!
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:36 PM   #34
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Apart from the fact that it's too limited to do a damn thing to harm freedom of expression, sure. Like I said, I get that your schtick is getting wildly outraged at liberals daring to exert influence, but you're wildly overstating the degree of this threat.
I am not wildly outraged at liberals exerting influence.
They are fully entitled to do that.
It's influence backed up by violence or the threat of violence that I object to.
If I'm overstating then threat of violence, how come the universities fall for it?
Even odds UC Berkeley's management agrees with UC Berkeley's students, and are taking the mobs as an excuse to block Mrs Coulter. No, actually, I was referring to the fact that this is hardly the greatest threat to free speech today. As SilentBob pointed out, it's barely a threat to Mrs Coulter's freedom to speak at that university.
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ASHSON
I am not wildly outraged at liberals exerting influence.
They are fully entitled to do that.
It's influence backed up by violence or the threat of violence that I object to.
If I'm overstating then threat of violence, how come the universities fall for it?
Even odds UC Berkeley's management agrees with UC Berkeley's students, and are taking the mobs as an excuse to block Mrs Coulter. No, actually, I was referring to the fact that this is hardly the greatest threat to free speech today. As SilentBob pointed out, it's barely a threat to Mrs Coulter's freedom to speak at that university.

Your odd little man your all for rights of refugees but yet then when comes to freedom of speech your like what's the problem all of her right to free speech wasn't vioated just this little part
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Old 04-23-2017, 03:57 AM   #36
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UC Berkeley students who invited Ann Coulter threaten to sue university
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Old Today, 01:25 AM   #37
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/opinio...ion/index.html
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Old Today, 05:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karter42
*ambivalent noise* My issue with this kind of absolutist freedom to speak and exchange ideas in the intellectual marketplace is that, quite simply, some ideas need to be rejected. Like, what happens when you extend that right to allowing Hitler to stand up and advocate Making Germany/America Great Again through genocide? Yes, a lot of people would do the right thing, and give his ideas all due consideration before writing an eloquent essay against genocide as a solution. Problem is, that only works so long as we are willing, as a country, to reject such ideas, and right now, I am really not sure how firmly white people would hold on that stance.
(Disclaimer for the whiny right: I don't mean that white people want genocide, I mean that white people want to Make America Great Again and would not be dissuaded by the need for genocide.)
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Old Today, 07:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
*ambivalent noise* My issue with this kind of absolutist freedom to speak and exchange ideas in the intellectual marketplace is that, quite simply, some ideas need to be rejected. Like, what happens when you extend that right to allowing Hitler to stand up and advocate Making Germany/America Great Again through genocide? Yes, a lot of people would do the right thing, and give his ideas all due consideration before writing an eloquent essay against genocide as a solution. Problem is, that only works so long as we are willing, as a country, to reject such ideas, and right now, I am really not sure how firmly white people would hold on that stance.
(Disclaimer for the whiny right: I don't mean that white people want genocide, I mean that white people want to Make America Great Again and would not be dissuaded by the need for genocide.)
What a racist comment.
Also, how anti-constitutional in your willingness to limit free speech.
Free speech is fine as long as the right ideas are advocated?
Only white people voted for Trump?

You show a lamentable lack of trust in your fellow citizens. It's like the politicians denying people the right to know because they wouldn't understand. Or perhaps because they would understand too well.

What makes you think that non-white people don't want their country to be great? Non-whites can be just as patriotic as non-whites.
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