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Old 05-09-2018, 05:58 PM   #1
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Economy Bernie Sanders's Job Guarantee: $15/Hour and Benefits For All Americans!



The Analysis of Sander's real ideas. But he can't answer were are we going to get the money?
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:16 PM   #2
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He also can't answer the question of what happens to the people who get laid off because their coworkers got a pay increase.
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:45 PM   #3
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What about all the people that this will force into lower class.
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Old 05-09-2018, 10:26 PM   #4
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He also can't answer the question of what happens to the people who get laid off because their coworkers got a pay increase.

Or when people lost their jobs because Obama thinks that Profit is Evil, unless it the profits from selling his books.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
The Analysis of Sander's real ideas. But he can't answer were are we going to get the money?
Obviously some of it is going to come from taxes, there's just no getting around that, and a good chunk is going to come from the welfare programs this (should) replace; people won't need welfare checks if they're getting paychecks. Ideally a lot of this will be also offset by economic activity generated by people having $15/hr burning a hole in their collective pocket and by the anti-broken-window theory reducing losses to poverty. After that, it depends on what this guaranteed job would be. If it's WPA/CCC stuff, we get more economic activity from people taking advantage of properly-maintained roads, bridges, canals, and whatever else Bernie's Boys fix.

What would simply delight me, though, is if this was going to fund itself by being the world's largest temp/contractor agency. Macca's wants a couple layabouts to man their registers? We've got 'em, and a bargain at $16.50 per billable hour. Amazon in dire need of people to run up and down their warehouses? Now available for the low, low, price of $18/hr. We've got the dudes you need, right here at Uncle Sam's House of Dudes.
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
The Analysis of Sander's real ideas. But he can't answer were are we going to get the money?
Obviously some of it is going to come from taxes, there's just no getting around that, and a good chunk is going to come from the welfare programs this (should) replace; people won't need welfare checks if they're getting paychecks. Ideally a lot of this will be also offset by economic activity generated by people having $15/hr burning a hole in their collective pocket and by the anti-broken-window theory reducing losses to poverty. After that, it depends on what this guaranteed job would be. If it's WPA/CCC stuff, we get more economic activity from people taking advantage of properly-maintained roads, bridges, canals, and whatever else Bernie's Boys fix.

What would simply delight me, though, is if this was going to fund itself by being the world's largest temp/contractor agency. Macca's wants a couple layabouts to man their registers? We've got 'em, and a bargain at $16.50 per billable hour. Amazon in dire need of people to run up and down their warehouses? Now available for the low, low, price of $18/hr. We've got the dudes you need, right here at Uncle Sam's House of Dudes.

And how do you make that sustainable? After all we have not had a positive trade balance since 1973. IF we just give people money, and the majority of it leaves the U.S., we have more and more of a short fall for the next round of paycheck. It called the Cocaine effect in a war game called Star Fleet Battles, but is seams to be a major issue with most Marx style Sanders economic systems.

That is the issue with a WPA/CCC system, you can fix all the roads you want, but unless that pay is going to help create sustainable industry, you don't have the taxes necessary to keep paying the money. It only worked in the 1930's because the U.S. had a internal circular economy system (like the circle of life only deal with money). We don't have that any more.
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Old 05-10-2018, 06:59 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
The Analysis of Sander's real ideas. But he can't answer were are we going to get the money?
Obviously some of it is going to come from taxes, there's just no getting around that, and a good chunk is going to come from the welfare programs this (should) replace; people won't need welfare checks if they're getting paychecks. Ideally a lot of this will be also offset by economic activity generated by people having $15/hr burning a hole in their collective pocket and by the anti-broken-window theory reducing losses to poverty. After that, it depends on what this guaranteed job would be. If it's WPA/CCC stuff, we get more economic activity from people taking advantage of properly-maintained roads, bridges, canals, and whatever else Bernie's Boys fix.

What would simply delight me, though, is if this was going to fund itself by being the world's largest temp/contractor agency. Macca's wants a couple layabouts to man their registers? We've got 'em, and a bargain at $16.50 per billable hour. Amazon in dire need of people to run up and down their warehouses? Now available for the low, low, price of $18/hr. We've got the dudes you need, right here at Uncle Sam's House of Dudes.


I really can't believe your going to try to defend this. After the huge failure of the mini experiment of this in seattle, in which you admitted to being a failure your still going to try to defend this.
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:37 PM   #8
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What would simply delight me, though, is if this was going to fund itself by being the world's largest temp/contractor agency. Macca's wants a couple layabouts to man their registers? We've got 'em, and a bargain at $16.50 per billable hour. Amazon in dire need of people to run up and down their warehouses? Now available for the low, low, price of $18/hr. We've got the dudes you need, right here at Uncle Sam's House of Dudes.

So you want American to work at bargain basement prices being pimped out by the government under Sanders. I though you were again slavery!
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:43 AM   #9
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“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”
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Old 05-11-2018, 01:53 PM   #10
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What would simply delight me, though, is if this was going to fund itself by being the world's largest temp/contractor agency. Macca's wants a couple layabouts to man their registers? We've got 'em, and a bargain at $16.50 per billable hour. Amazon in dire need of people to run up and down their warehouses? Now available for the low, low, price of $18/hr. We've got the dudes you need, right here at Uncle Sam's House of Dudes.

So you want American to work at bargain basement prices being pimped out by the government under Sanders. I though you were again slavery!
The bargain basement price of 30% more than they're currently getting, plus benefits? Granted, it's still the usual wage slavery because none of those people have the option to stop working entirely, but that's America if you're not in the 1%. Plus, the mere existence of this program will drive up wages elsewhere. Macdonald's and similar would be forced to pay their employees $15+/hr, lest they leave and take Bernie's job offer.
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger

So you want American to work at bargain basement prices being pimped out by the government under Sanders. I though you were again slavery!
The bargain basement price of 30% more than they're currently getting, plus benefits? Granted, it's still the usual wage slavery because none of those people have the option to stop working entirely, but that's America if you're not in the 1%. Plus, the mere existence of this program will drive up wages elsewhere. Macdonald's and similar would be forced to pay their employees $15+/hr, lest they leave and take Bernie's job offer.

For someone who claim to know so much about economics, other jobs will not see a wage increase, in fact massively moving the minimum wage up will only increase the number of American at or below the poverty line. Why, because Inflation will also go up. You double the minimum wage, you will see 100% inflation the next year. Because where do these company get the money to pay these higher wages?
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Old 05-12-2018, 12:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
The bargain basement price of 30% more than they're currently getting, plus benefits? Granted, it's still the usual wage slavery because none of those people have the option to stop working entirely, but that's America if you're not in the 1%. Plus, the mere existence of this program will drive up wages elsewhere. Macdonald's and similar would be forced to pay their employees $15+/hr, lest they leave and take Bernie's job offer.

For someone who claim to know so much about economics, other jobs will not see a wage increase, in fact massively moving the minimum wage up will only increase the number of American at or below the poverty line. Why, because Inflation will also go up. You double the minimum wage, you will see 100% inflation the next year. Because where do these company get the money to pay these higher wages?
By charging their customers very slightly higher prices, because labor isn't the entire cost of a product/service, especially minimum wage labor. I ran some calculations a while back, possibly even in this forum, and McDonald's could double its entire payroll, from fry cooks up to the CEO, by raising its prices 14%. Your hamburger would cost 6 bits to a dollar more, and less than that if we only raise the wage floor.
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Facts or GTFO. Anecdotal arguments will be met with mockery.
Food stamps stimulate the economy, tax cuts don't, tax rates are at a historic low, welfare queens are either non-existent or embarrassingly near.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger

For someone who claim to know so much about economics, other jobs will not see a wage increase, in fact massively moving the minimum wage up will only increase the number of American at or below the poverty line. Why, because Inflation will also go up. You double the minimum wage, you will see 100% inflation the next year. Because where do these company get the money to pay these higher wages?
By charging their customers very slightly higher prices, because labor isn't the entire cost of a product/service, especially minimum wage labor. I ran some calculations a while back, possibly even in this forum, and McDonald's could double its entire payroll, from fry cooks up to the CEO, by raising its prices 14%. Your hamburger would cost 6 bits to a dollar more, and less than that if we only raise the wage floor.


Yes darth it was here you ran the calculations. And in your calculations you left out the increased taxes the business would have to pay, and as you said labor is only a small part of the product so as usual you calculate the whole price of the product as profit. You also leave out that the product also came from labor, so product will go up. Once agasin you show your not very good with economics, and even worse is your falling back on your old arguments that were already proven wrong.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:16 AM   #14
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By charging their customers very slightly higher prices, because labor isn't the entire cost of a product/service, especially minimum wage labor. I ran some calculations a while back, possibly even in this forum, and McDonald's could double its entire payroll, from fry cooks up to the CEO, by raising its prices 14%. Your hamburger would cost 6 bits to a dollar more, and less than that if we only raise the wage floor.
Of course there are the associated costs that you don't seem to be considering.
McDonald's now costs more so the customers go to Hungry Jack's, resulting in a downturn in McDonald's business, resulting in border line outlets closing.
Alternatively, Hungry Jack's employees have to get the raise as well, or they lose their staff to the higher paying McDonald's.
So the flow on effect could mean that we have price rises across all food industries resulting in higher prices for everyone. People, finding the cost of their weekly food shopping is climbing, start agitating for their own wage rise.
Away we go. Prices generally go up, wages go up, prices go up, some businesses go broke, inflation gets a jump.

Another alternative - McDonald's doesn't raise its' prices, opting to absorb the increase in wages. Profits go down. Dividends go down. Some outlets have to close down. Investors get less return for their shares. Pensioners needing this dividend to survive find themselves going hungry.

Tell me, do you ever consider the ramifications of your brilliant suggestions?
Nothing exists in isolation. Touch one thing and everything else has to adjust. The law of unintended consequences comes out fighting and it's usually the little man that gets punched on the nose.

Consider Zimbabwe. Take the farms from the Whites and give them to the Blacks. Success. The Blacks rule. But they didn't know how to farm. Farms died. From exporting food Zimbabwe was reduced to importing it. They're begging the White farmers to come back but aren't having much luck. South Africa looks like following Zimbabwe down the same track.
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:28 AM   #15
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By charging their customers very slightly higher prices, because labor isn't the entire cost of a product/service, especially minimum wage labor. I ran some calculations a while back, possibly even in this forum, and McDonald's could double its entire payroll, from fry cooks up to the CEO, by raising its prices 14%. Your hamburger would cost 6 bits to a dollar more, and less than that if we only raise the wage floor.
Of course there are the associated costs that you don't seem to be considering.
McDonald's now costs more so the customers go to Hungry Jack's, resulting in a downturn in McDonald's business, resulting in border line outlets closing.
Alternatively, Hungry Jack's employees have to get the raise as well, or they lose their staff to the higher paying McDonald's.
So the flow on effect could mean that we have price rises across all food industries resulting in higher prices for everyone. People, finding the cost of their weekly food shopping is climbing, start agitating for their own wage rise.
Away we go. Prices generally go up, wages go up, prices go up, some businesses go broke, inflation gets a jump.

Another alternative - McDonald's doesn't raise its' prices, opting to absorb the increase in wages. Profits go down. Dividends go down. Some outlets have to close down. Investors get less return for their shares. Pensioners needing this dividend to survive find themselves going hungry.

Tell me, do you ever consider the ramifications of your brilliant suggestions?
Nothing exists in isolation. Touch one thing and everything else has to adjust. The law of unintended consequences comes out fighting and it's usually the little man that gets punched on the nose.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, little pebbles make broad ripples. The thing about ripples, though, is that the farther out you go, the smaller they are. Like, consider that "food prices increase due to the minimum wage hike" scenario. Again, the wage hike would come to 14ish percent of current prices, and probably less all things considered, but we'll go with 15% for simplicity's sake. That comes to about $90 a month for a family of 4, which means (assuming only one income and that they don't entirely absorb this expense) they'd need to get a raise of about 57 cents per hour. Not a trivial endeavor, but significantly easier if they can threaten to leave for a government paycheck. And then their boss has to absorb/recoup the expense of their labor costs increasing by 3-4%, which will drive up the cost of their products by an imperceptible amount, and at this point we have to stop making calculations. And again, 15% is an unrealistically high estimate, so the actual cost increase after second-order effects is going to be much lower than you're expecting.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:16 AM   #16
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, little pebbles make broad ripples. The thing about ripples, though, is that the farther out you go, the smaller they are. Like, consider that "food prices increase due to the minimum wage hike" scenario. Again, the wage hike would come to 14ish percent of current prices, and probably less all things considered, but we'll go with 15% for simplicity's sake. That comes to about $90 a month for a family of 4, which means (assuming only one income and that they don't entirely absorb this expense) they'd need to get a raise of about 57 cents per hour. Not a trivial endeavor, but significantly easier if they can threaten to leave for a government paycheck. And then their boss has to absorb/recoup the expense of their labor costs increasing by 3-4%, which will drive up the cost of their products by an imperceptible amount, and at this point we have to stop making calculations. And again, 15% is an unrealistically high estimate, so the actual cost increase after second-order effects is going to be much lower than you're expecting.
It's just a little increase that drives up inflation just a little bit.
Pump a little air into a balloon and it goes up just a little bit. Keep pumping and eventually the balloon bursts.
Leave for a government paycheck? Who covers the cost of those government paychecks? Why the taxpayer of course. A simple solution. Just increase taxes on those who work. Of course, they'll need to get pay rises to cover the increase in taxation. And on it goes.
This is not a case of a pebble making a ripple. How about that pebble hitting another one and knocking it loose. Those two pebbles hit a third which hits a fourth. There goes the landslide, crushing all before it.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:47 PM   #17
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, little pebbles make broad ripples. The thing about ripples, though, is that the farther out you go, the smaller they are. Like, consider that "food prices increase due to the minimum wage hike" scenario. Again, the wage hike would come to 14ish percent of current prices, and probably less all things considered, but we'll go with 15% for simplicity's sake. That comes to about $90 a month for a family of 4, which means (assuming only one income and that they don't entirely absorb this expense) they'd need to get a raise of about 57 cents per hour. Not a trivial endeavor, but significantly easier if they can threaten to leave for a government paycheck. And then their boss has to absorb/recoup the expense of their labor costs increasing by 3-4%, which will drive up the cost of their products by an imperceptible amount, and at this point we have to stop making calculations. And again, 15% is an unrealistically high estimate, so the actual cost increase after second-order effects is going to be much lower than you're expecting.
It's just a little increase that drives up inflation just a little bit.
Pump a little air into a balloon and it goes up just a little bit. Keep pumping and eventually the balloon bursts.
Leave for a government paycheck? Who covers the cost of those government paychecks? Why the taxpayer of course. A simple solution. Just increase taxes on those who work. Of course, they'll need to get pay rises to cover the increase in taxation. And on it goes.
This is not a case of a pebble making a ripple. How about that pebble hitting another one and knocking it loose. Those two pebbles hit a third which hits a fourth. There goes the landslide, crushing all before it.
Or, some people will leave the government job to take a job in the private sector to provide goods/services to the people who suddenly have $15/hr burning a hole in their pockets, some of Bernie's Boys get themselves wealth-generating jobs while on a government paycheck, and things equilibrate at this new, higher, level of consumer demand.
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:58 PM   #18
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Excellent point. And, it is real thing, too.

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He also can't answer the question of what happens to the people who get laid off because their coworkers got a pay increase.
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:59 PM   #19
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Excellent point. And, it is real thing, too.
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He also can't answer the question of what happens to the people who get laid off because their coworkers got a pay increase.
Coming to a McDonalds near you, courtesy of the $15 minimum wage.

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Old 05-12-2018, 08:17 PM   #20
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Of course there are the associated costs that you don't seem to be considering.
McDonald's now costs more so the customers go to Hungry Jack's, resulting in a downturn in McDonald's business, resulting in border line outlets closing.
Alternatively, Hungry Jack's employees have to get the raise as well, or they lose their staff to the higher paying McDonald's.
So the flow on effect could mean that we have price rises across all food industries resulting in higher prices for everyone. People, finding the cost of their weekly food shopping is climbing, start agitating for their own wage rise.
Away we go. Prices generally go up, wages go up, prices go up, some businesses go broke, inflation gets a jump.

Another alternative - McDonald's doesn't raise its' prices, opting to absorb the increase in wages. Profits go down. Dividends go down. Some outlets have to close down. Investors get less return for their shares. Pensioners needing this dividend to survive find themselves going hungry.

Tell me, do you ever consider the ramifications of your brilliant suggestions?
Nothing exists in isolation. Touch one thing and everything else has to adjust. The law of unintended consequences comes out fighting and it's usually the little man that gets punched on the nose.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, little pebbles make broad ripples. The thing about ripples, though, is that the farther out you go, the smaller they are. Like, consider that "food prices increase due to the minimum wage hike" scenario. Again, the wage hike would come to 14ish percent of current prices, and probably less all things considered, but we'll go with 15% for simplicity's sake. That comes to about $90 a month for a family of 4, which means (assuming only one income and that they don't entirely absorb this expense) they'd need to get a raise of about 57 cents per hour. Not a trivial endeavor, but significantly easier if they can threaten to leave for a government paycheck. And then their boss has to absorb/recoup the expense of their labor costs increasing by 3-4%, which will drive up the cost of their products by an imperceptible amount, and at this point we have to stop making calculations. And again, 15% is an unrealistically high estimate, so the actual cost increase after second-order effects is going to be much lower than you're expecting.


First of your calculation have no backing so basically your just spouting off senseless numbers, but hey lets just run with it. So the average family with one worker will need to get a raise of 57 cents to pay for food. Well the family will need gas to drive to the store to get food, so it goes to the gas station to get gas where the guy there also needed a 57 cent raise to pay for food so gas went up to cover his raise. So the family now needs another raise to pay for gas. The family also needs to keep the car running that they use to get groceries, so they go to the mechanic who has to pay for higher priced food and higher priced gas so he needed a even bigger raise. So the cost of maintain the families car went up, so the family needs an even bigger raise to cover that. And so on and so on. So your scenario works in a single factor situation. But we don't have a single factor in the economy, so you have multiple ripples in the ripple effect. So what happens when two ripples collide, you get one large ripple. Which is why as ashon said inflation goes nuts when you raise minimum wage.

What really bad here is either your claim to knowing economics is completely false, or you think your so much smarter than everyone else that no one will catch your false scenario.
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