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Old 02-17-2018, 03:56 AM   #1
ASHSON
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Politics Gun laws or Policing

What does the US require? Better gun laws or better policing of the laws that they do have?

This about the latest school shooter.

Quote:
Despite strong signals,including evidence that he was treated for psychological difficulties last year, why was he allowed to fall off the radar of mental health services?

Even more relevant, perhaps, is the YouTube post from a user named Nikolas Cruz expressing a desire to become “a professional school shooter”, which the FBI probed without conclusion. How did the suspect pass a federal background check that enabled him to buy an AR-15 at Sunrise Tactical Supply gun shop in Coral Springs, entirely legally?

Any chance of a meaningful debate on this issue.
By meaningful I mean one where the posts try to make reasonable points for one side or the other without degenerating into personal abuse.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:58 PM   #2
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This is where I side with the gun "control" people. I am steadfast in my opposition to limiting or eliminating any specific weapons, but equally adamant that there are some people who should not have access to firearms. Crazy people, for instance.

While I don't believe the people should be denied access to weapons, I strongly feel that certain individuals should never touch firearms. Stronger (and enforced) registration and qualification laws would go a long way toward accomplishing this. Many countries have open gun ownership, but strict registration, maintenance, and training requirements. Japan, for example.

Unfortunately, the gun "control" faction keeps blaming the weapons, instead of the system. I have fostered discord in other forums by blaming teachers for the most recent school shooting. If the shooter was expelled for "disciplinary problems", then someone must have noticed there was a problem with this kid. And yet, it was kept hidden. Had someone said, at almost any point, "This kid needs help," and had the kid gotten help, the shooting might not have occurred at all.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:03 PM   #3
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I do not think such a debate is possible. I have already been involved in several of these debate on other sites, and the Gun-ban side seam to always start name calling those that disagree with them.

The most basic fact of this issue is that there have always been Firearms in the U.S., but these mass shooting have only become more common and an issue in the last 20 years or so. Why? The firearms have not become more dangerous or powerful. Contrary to popular belief they cannot posess an individual and force them to do any thing.

So the question is why is this happening today, what is its base cause. The truth is neither side really want to do anything about it, or only if there some political advantage in doing such. But the simple fact of the matter is we live in a society where it is consider perfectly acceptable and normal to chew others up and spit them out, were a person had no more value than a tool, to be used, abuse, and when no longer considered need, thrown away! And then we get upset when that person cracked and fights back in what they see any the only way possible.

You might want to say our society is not like that how many times have we been be told "business is Cutthroat"? How many time has the justification of anything been it is necessary or we would go out of business. Or "But his contract said" and "those are only perks that can be taking away any time the company see fits, but the CEO had a contract, and that is more binding then the word of God". How many lies have we been told about U.S. made goods to justify buy foreign? etc.

Look at shows like Big Brother or Survive. What is there most basic factor? Get rid of all the window dressing or other components and they are the same, 1) form an alliance with others, to screw over those not in your alliance 2) The screw over the other in your alliance so you can win. It teaches that being a back stabler is good! That and many other things, are carrying over into our society in general.

As long as we continue to treat our fellow American in such ways these time of incident will continue, with or without firearms.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:23 PM   #4
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Any chance of a meaningful debate on this issue.
By meaningful I mean one where the posts try to make reasonable points for one side or the other without degenerating into personal abuse.
Honestly, probably not. At the risk of opening with personal abuse, we decided 6 years ago not to do anything after a literal classroom full of kindergartners were gunned down. That was more or less the end of the gun control debate in America.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:39 PM   #5
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The politicization of this the last few days has been disappointing. People blaming Trump yet don't also say, "Well, what did Obama do when he had the chance?" nothing...

Which begs the question of what do you do to stop it? I hear a lot about mental health issues. What should the threshold be for that? I see a lot of people saying, "Well, the kid was known to be crazy" or have problems, etc. So, when does the law step in and say to a person - you cannot own a firearm? If you've ever been prescribed an anti-depressant? Ever seen a counselor? The irony with that is that many returning soldiers might have some slight issues with PTSD and fall into that category. So, we're going to pull anyone who seeks/gets help out of the military?

These are the kinds of real issues you deal with when you consider what exactly you can do.

Too many people are just lashing out with emotion. I get it, though. It is awful to see 17 kids gunned down.

My theory is that part of what fuels this is the 24/7 news cycle. These people seek attention and the media gives it to them. If this happened 50 years ago, you might get a blurb on national news for a few minutes for a day or two. Now, you get 24/7 coverage for days and weeks.

The left wants to essentially ban guns. Good luck with that. We live in a gun culture. We always have. When I was in high school, it was commonplace to see guys with gun racks in their pickup trucks with hunting rifles in them - at school. Guess what? No school shootings. So, what's changed?

Partly, the rabid news cycle. Partly, the slow degradation of personal responsibility and society in general.

You can ban assault rifles but that wont stop it. The Virginia Tech shooter used handguns.

Like I said, the mental health angle might be a place to start to intervene early. But, if someone is really motivated to be a shooter they're gonna do it anyway.

Its maddening.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:29 AM   #6
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Default I think its very possible to have the discussion

its sort of hard for me to believe, but I very closely agree with
iron_warmonger & infantrystud on this issue.

I do want to add Facebook to infantrystuds list of things that fuel these events.
I belive that they are all attention driven.

Facebook being the leading venue for weak-minded ASW.
the constant seeking of attention/approval being IMHO a very great indicator of
the type of person likely to commit such acts.

its also time to ask why warnings are ignored & information is not
shared that might have prevented such actions.

instead of blaming guns lets hold public officials accountable for such lapses.
so far the discussion is both meaningful & rational.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:46 AM   #7
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Most if not all of the social media hysteria is about the AR-15, so here we go again, let's ban it.

What I'd like to know is what are the "common sense" gun control laws people are blabbering about? We already have background checks, laws against mental/or convicted felons, abusers, and all around no goods not getting weapons.

Do you not think if they banned ALL weapons, that guns will still find their way into hands that require them?

Can someone answer the "Common Sense" thing for me?
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:59 AM   #8
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One of the major problems is we have removed all power from adults and officials. Starting with schools they are no longer allowed to punish kids with the claim that kids have the same rights as an adult. It is down to the only thing they could do was give kids detention and now the parents even balk that because it inconvinces them. Teachers can no longer touch a student. A student is misbehaving the teacher can not physically remove them from the room. They have to just stand there and let the kid throw his tantrum

Then we move on to cops and everyone's claims of abuse. I mean dear lord you want to blame the cop for getting busted and never mind you were comiting a number of crimes. Nope people just say the cop was picking on me and other people will back them up on it.

So basically these kids have developed a god like attitude because there is no consequences for them misbehaving. So till kids are once again allowed to be punished this will continue to happen. Even if we remove the guns. Look at how many murders are out there by teenagers without guns and when they are interviewed the trend is to say I wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. And they show zero remorse. So till parents actually act like parents this will continue

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Old 02-18-2018, 01:03 AM   #9
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Default I'll try to answer as best I can

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepneat
Most if not all of the social media hysteria is about the AR-15, so here we go again, let's ban it.

What I'd like to know is what are the "common sense" gun control laws people are blabbering about? We already have background checks, laws against mental/or convicted felons, abusers, and all around no goods not getting weapons.

Do you not think if they banned ALL weapons, that guns will still find their way into hands that require them?

Can someone answer the "Common Sense" thing for me?
it only rarely happens but I disagree with garison on this issue.

the "Common Sense" thing is entirely the gun control side of the issue.
common sense reform is NOT any part of their agenda but rather the total disarmament
of all those that would willingly give up their means of self protection.

common sense will tell you that something is wrong when this guy hired an Uber
ride to a school with an AR-15 strapped to himself.

and then he was allowed to enter the school with his AR-15.
does anybody here know how large an AR-15 is?
ever handle/shoot one?

the first thing that we need is some security at schools.
we must not have any.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:46 AM   #10
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Do children actually get taught gun etiquette at school in the US?
Are there rules and regulations that you must follow before you can buy one?
You have to have training before you can get a license and drive a car. Does the same apply to guns? If not, why not?

Break the law while driving a car and you lose your license.
Does the same sort of thing apply to guns?

This kid was sold a powerful weapon.
Why didn't the law require him to demonstrate his suitability for owning such a weapon?

I am not anti-gun as such. Guns are tools and very useful tools in some instances. Guns are also sporting equipment.
It's the prevalence for weapons just for the sake of having a weapon that worries me.

Joe Blow owns a gun. I see no need for him to own it but if it makes him feel safer then fair enough, I guess.
Joe Blow owns an armory, with hand guns, rifles, and shotguns. I now consider Joe Blow a threat to my safety. Why does he need all those weapons? What is he planning?
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:11 AM   #11
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepneat
Most if not all of the social media hysteria is about the AR-15, so here we go again, let's ban it.

What I'd like to know is what are the "common sense" gun control laws people are blabbering about? We already have background checks, laws against mental/or convicted felons, abusers, and all around no goods not getting weapons.

Can someone answer the "Common Sense" thing for me?
CNN can help you out on the common sense side of things.
Quote:
Do you not think if they banned ALL weapons, that guns will still find their way into hands that require them?
Disagree, or at least, you're hand-waving away some very important details. As it stands, if I want to kill you, all it costs is a few hundred bucks at Wal-Mart and a few days waiting period, and then I can shoot you down like a dog in the street. Thus always to people who put pineapple on pizza!

On the other hand, if guns are banned, then I'll either need to go to a black-market smuggler who will charge significantly more, or go to the machine shop and start sawing away. Either way, it is significantly more difficult to get a gun, and significantly fewer people will "require" guns.

(Of course, now you're going to take the other tack, that if I can't kill you with a gun, I can still beat you to death with a pool noodle or something. Which is true, but again, as matters stand, it is fairly trivial for me to buy a gun and shoot you down, but bashing your brains in would take some effort on my part, and I don't want to kill you that much.)

I actually do think disarmament is a bad idea, but the fearmongering usually put forth against it is worse.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Do children actually get taught gun etiquette at school in the US?
Are there rules and regulations that you must follow before you can buy one?
You have to have training before you can get a license and drive a car. Does the same apply to guns? If not, why not?

Break the law while driving a car and you lose your license.
Does the same sort of thing apply to guns?

This kid was sold a powerful weapon.
Why didn't the law require him to demonstrate his suitability for owning such a weapon?

I am not anti-gun as such. Guns are tools and very useful tools in some instances. Guns are also sporting equipment.
It's the prevalence for weapons just for the sake of having a weapon that worries me.

Joe Blow owns a gun. I see no need for him to own it but if it makes him feel safer then fair enough, I guess.
Joe Blow owns an armory, with hand guns, rifles, and shotguns. I now consider Joe Blow a threat to my safety. Why does he need all those weapons? What is he planning?

Driving a car is a privilege granted by the government, so the government can place whatever strictures it deems necessary by local or state law. There is no federal law regarding driving privileges except for those areas where interstate commerce are involved (such as for commercial driving across state lines).

Owning a gun is a right granted by an authority which supersedes the government as explicitly defined in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (along with rights such as freedom of speech, freedom to peaceably assemble, freedom to practice one's religion, etc.). Gun ownership for the purposes of self-defense is a legal theory which has been upheld by the Supreme Court, so it is the law of the land. Changing gun ownership from a right to a privilege would require a constitutional amendment.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:41 AM   #13
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Do children actually get taught gun etiquette at school in the US?
Are there rules and regulations that you must follow before you can buy one?
You have to have training before you can get a license and drive a car. Does the same apply to guns? If not, why not?
Alright, this is one of the things that I really fucking do want to fix, because the answer to more or less all of your questions in this post is "maybe, depending on where you're talking about". Some jurisdictions require applicants to sit through a few hours of videos on safe gun handling before they can get a gun, some settle for "Yep, Sheriff Bill vouches for you", and some places will let anybody who hasn't declared their intention to commit murder buy a gun and carry it in public.
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Joe Blow owns a gun. I see no need for him to own it but if it makes him feel safer then fair enough, I guess.
Joe Blow owns an armory, with hand guns, rifles, and shotguns. I now consider Joe Blow a threat to my safety. Why does he need all those weapons? What is he planning?
This is, honestly, a little overblown, because odds are good Joe's just planning to go hunting and defend his home, neither of which I can complain about. On the other hand, he might be planning murder, and I would like some sort of barrier between a murderer and an arsenal.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:14 AM   #14
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Changing gun ownership from a right to a privilege would require a constitutional amendment.
But this means that their is a legal way to change the gun culture within the US. All it needs is the public to demand that change and vote for an amendment to the constitution.

The question is, how much of an atrocity must be committed to swing the public behind such an amendment?
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JoeJitsu
Changing gun ownership from a right to a privilege would require a constitutional amendment.
But this means that their is a legal way to change the gun culture within the US. All it needs is the public to demand that change and vote for an amendment to the constitution.

The question is, how much of an atrocity must be committed to swing the public behind such an amendment?

Some people think that the election of Donald Trump was an atrocity. Do you think those people will manage to pass a constitutional amendment restricting the freedom of speech of people who have a perpetual bad hair day and brag about groping women? I don't. I also don't think there's going to be any constitutional amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JoeJitsu
Changing gun ownership from a right to a privilege would require a constitutional amendment.
But this means that their is a legal way to change the gun culture within the US. All it needs is the public to demand that change and vote for an amendment to the constitution.

The question is, how much of an atrocity must be committed to swing the public behind such an amendment?
I direct you back to my first comment in this thread.

E: Like, a non-white person killing double-digits of nuns, children, and puppies might swing the general public more firmly towards actually doing anything, but even then, we'd probably wind up banning non-white people instead of guns.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:50 AM   #17
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CNN can help you out on the common sense side of things.
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Do you not think if they banned ALL weapons, that guns will still find their way into hands that require them?
Disagree, or at least, you're hand-waving away some very important details. As it stands, if I want to kill you, all it costs is a few hundred bucks at Wal-Mart and a few days waiting period, and then I can shoot you down like a dog in the street. Thus always to people who put pineapple on pizza!

On the other hand, if guns are banned, then I'll either need to go to a black-market smuggler who will charge significantly more, or go to the machine shop and start sawing away. Either way, it is significantly more difficult to get a gun, and significantly fewer people will "require" guns.

(Of course, now you're going to take the other tack, that if I can't kill you with a gun, I can still beat you to death with a pool noodle or something. Which is true, but again, as matters stand, it is fairly trivial for me to buy a gun and shoot you down, but bashing your brains in would take some effort on my part, and I don't want to kill you that much.)

I actually do think disarmament is a bad idea, but the fearmongering usually put forth against it is worse.


I have to point out a few things wrong here. Black market guns are cheaper. Why because they are illegal, you can't just simpliy sell them to anyone, so to unload them they have to be much cheaper than legally obtaining a gun. Or for example when they legalized weed in Washington, they said it would run the illegal drug dealers out of business because the weed would be cheaper and more readily available. In which legalizing did neither because it did not become cheaper than the illegal weed and the dealers were in such abundance people had no problem getting it in the first place.

The other is (and this has been discussed before) you can easily 3d print a gun these days with very little knowledge of engineering. So going and making a gun is really not that hard of thing these days.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:02 AM   #18
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I have to point out a few things wrong here. Black market guns are cheaper. Why because they are illegal, you can't just simpliy sell them to anyone, so to unload them they have to be much cheaper than legally obtaining a gun. Or for example when they legalized weed in Washington, they said it would run the illegal drug dealers out of business because the weed would be cheaper and more readily available. In which legalizing did neither because it did not become cheaper than the illegal weed and the dealers were in such abundance people had no problem getting it in the first place.

The other is (and this has been discussed before) you can easily 3d print a gun these days with very little knowledge of engineering. So going and making a gun is really not that hard of thing these days.
The quality of the gun makes a big difference.
So does the type of gun.
Would that kid have been able to kill 17 people if he only had a hand gun?

Also, it takes skill to set up a program to print a gun. Any mistakes and you have something that could blow up in your hand.
Can a 3D printer actually print a material tough enough to be a gun. There's quite a bit of power in an exploding cartridge.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:22 AM   #19
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I have to point out a few things wrong here. Black market guns are cheaper. Why because they are illegal, you can't just simpliy sell them to anyone, so to unload them they have to be much cheaper than legally obtaining a gun. Or for example when they legalized weed in Washington, they said it would run the illegal drug dealers out of business because the weed would be cheaper and more readily available. In which legalizing did neither because it did not become cheaper than the illegal weed and the dealers were in such abundance people had no problem getting it in the first place.

The other is (and this has been discussed before) you can easily 3d print a gun these days with very little knowledge of engineering. So going and making a gun is really not that hard of thing these days.
The quality of the gun makes a big difference.
So does the type of gun.
Would that kid have been able to kill 17 people if he only had a hand gun?

Also, it takes skill to set up a program to print a gun. Any mistakes and you have something that could blow up in your hand.
Can a 3D printer actually print a material tough enough to be a gun. There's quite a bit of power in an exploding cartridge.


The columbine shooter used a carbine rifle and killed 13. The virgina tech shooter used hand guns and killed 32, So yes he would have been able to kill that many people with only a hand gun.

And no it doesn't any skill to print a gun. You download the program online input it and you then have a gun.

And yes they are making 3d guns quite reliable now. As I said this was discussed already. Mabey you didn't read that thread. But the whole old school thinking of 3d guns are only good for one shot and that cnc machine needed to make the trigger mechanism is unattainable are long gone.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:50 PM   #20
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Also, it takes skill to set up a program to print a gun. Any mistakes and you have something that could blow up in your hand.
Can a 3D printer actually print a material tough enough to be a gun. There's quite a bit of power in an exploding cartridge.
Less than you'd think, but this puts us back at the quality problem. It's significantly more difficult to kill people with a single-shot .22LR than a self-loading rifle in .223.

Also,
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I have to point out a few things wrong here. Black market guns are cheaper. Why because they are illegal, you can't just simpliy sell them to anyone, so to unload them they have to be much cheaper than legally obtaining a gun.
And if you cannot legally obtain a gun, because we've banned guns from civilians, the black market can get very expensive indeed. On top of that, if the black market can no longer source from the 300 million guns currently in civilian circulation, and has to smuggle guns in from foreign parts or illicit machine shops, they can get yet more expensive.
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