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Old 07-17-2017, 01:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 65dart
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Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.

Already covered this darth. Union companies hire better employees as it is to hard to fire people once they are in the union. So the higher wages is due to having the best of the best, not because of what the unions have done.
I will dispute this, simply on the grounds of how hard it is to find the best of the best, though I will submit that it's because union members are required to become the best, to justify their wage premium. My mother worked an SEIU job for a while, and was required to go through continuing education by the union, not by her employer.
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Also I would like to ask are you actually in a union. Also do you talk to people outside of your circle that in are unions. I'm really curious to know what they say. Because everyone I have talked to say the dues are not worth the benefits, the only person that gains from a union is the one that should be fired.
No, sadly. I'd like to be, but as an IT guy I'm too replaceable and as a man with a family in poverty I'm too desperate to keep this job to rock the boat. I've mentioned my mother working with SEIU, and my buddy was a Teamster while he was a bus driver, but otherwise, I've been in IT/software circles since I graduated, and they are famously hesitant to organize.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:56 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
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Already covered this darth. Union companies hire better employees as it is to hard to fire people once they are in the union. So the higher wages is due to having the best of the best, not because of what the unions have done.
I will dispute this, simply on the grounds of how hard it is to find the best of the best, though I will submit that it's because union members are required to become the best, to justify their wage premium. My mother worked an SEIU job for a while, and was required to go through continuing education by the union, not by her employer.
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Also I would like to ask are you actually in a union. Also do you talk to people outside of your circle that in are unions. I'm really curious to know what they say. Because everyone I have talked to say the dues are not worth the benefits, the only person that gains from a union is the one that should be fired.
No, sadly. I'd like to be, but as an IT guy I'm too replaceable and as a man with a family in poverty I'm too desperate to keep this job to rock the boat. I've mentioned my mother working with SEIU, and my buddy was a Teamster while he was a bus driver, but otherwise, I've been in IT/software circles since I graduated, and they are famously hesitant to organize.


But that only further backs my claims. Yes the best of the best of get hired, so that eliminates say 75% of people that apply for a job. It could simply be for simple stuff, no work history, being tardy often, ex boss didn't like them. So again unions do the opposite of what you preach, but yet you still back them.

So then your actual dealing with unions, and people that are in unions is very limited. You need to seriously talk to some people in unions. Most want out. The dues are not worth the benfits. At least that is what everyone tells me. As I said before everyone I have talked to says the only thing their union does is protect the guy that needs to be fired. I also have a couple of close friends that say they absouletly hate the union because one collective bargaining is holding back their wage. And as they keep moving up the ranks their pay is not increased because of the union.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:04 PM   #23
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Unions had their place back in the 1900s when work could be a dangerous place. Now, we have laws for all that stuff. Like the horse buggy, they outlived their usefulness. Now, they are just lobbying organizations for the democrats. And, job killers.
I will direct you to my previous posts for the "We have laws for all that stuff" point, and the study I linked previously for "job killers". They do not kill jobs, they do in fact get higher wages for jobs.

And again darth how many laws do you think can be made to protect workers, do you honestly think any of the laws put in place could be pulled at this point time. And top of that how many civil right groups do we have now that do the exact same thing and don't cost the worker a dime.

Your statement goes perfect with infantry comments. What did peterbuilt do. They shut down one store that had workers not worth what they were demanding, so the other store you know they kept open had better workers worth the extra, so that store is making more, then to top it off you now have a whole bunch of unemployed people desperate for a job taking anything they can get, being desperate means making way less than your worth. So of course on paper it looks like union workers are making more. But reality is how mant people are losing because of unions.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:53 PM   #24
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Except if a plant closes because they company just gets tired of dealing with the union, those people don't get a wage increase. They get unemployment.

#jobkillerz

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Unions had their place back in the 1900s when work could be a dangerous place. Now, we have laws for all that stuff. Like the horse buggy, they outlived their usefulness. Now, they are just lobbying organizations for the democrats. And, job killers.
I will direct you to my previous posts for the "We have laws for all that stuff" point, and the study I linked previously for "job killers". They do not kill jobs, they do in fact get higher wages for jobs.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:19 AM   #25
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What are you even talking about now. What does minority voting have to do with a union.
Somehow I knew you wouldn't make the connection, even though I tried to hand it to you by quoting darth.

You said
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Most of what a union used to do is now done by lawmakers. They are outdated. And a waste of money. They did their job and their usefulness is now gone.
The Voting Rights Act is a good example of why that's not true. People got together, demonstrated, contacted their elected representatives, etc. and got the Voting Rights Act passed.

Fifty years later the Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision said that the Act was outdated, its usefulness gone, etc. much like you claim about the unions. Within days many states began legislation designed to restrict voting. States are now much freer to gerrymander districts. Obviously the usefulness of the Voting Rights Act was not gone because it prevented those abuses. Unions are the same; do away with the unions and the protections they provide and companies will very quickly re-institute the practices they had before unions.
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:02 AM   #26
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Somehow I knew you wouldn't make the connection, even though I tried to hand it to you by quoting darth.

You said
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Originally Posted by 65daft
Most of what a union used to do is now done by lawmakers. They are outdated. And a waste of money. They did their job and their usefulness is now gone.
The Voting Rights Act is a good example of why that's not true. People got together, demonstrated, contacted their elected representatives, etc. and got the Voting Rights Act passed.

Fifty years later the Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision said that the Act was outdated, its usefulness gone, etc. much like you claim about the unions. Within days many states began legislation designed to restrict voting. States are now much freer to gerrymander districts. Obviously the usefulness of the Voting Rights Act was not gone because it prevented those abuses. Unions are the same; do away with the unions and the protections they provide and companies will very quickly re-institute the practices they had before unions.
Yeah, laws are irrelevant. When companies stop trying to screw over their employees to save a few dollars, then unions will be unnecessary. There need not be unions among us, any more than there need be poor people among us.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:20 AM   #27
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Somehow I knew you wouldn't make the connection, even though I tried to hand it to you by quoting darth.

You said
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Originally Posted by 65daft
Most of what a union used to do is now done by lawmakers. They are outdated. And a waste of money. They did their job and their usefulness is now gone.
The Voting Rights Act is a good example of why that's not true. People got together, demonstrated, contacted their elected representatives, etc. and got the Voting Rights Act passed.

Fifty years later the Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision said that the Act was outdated, its usefulness gone, etc. much like you claim about the unions. Within days many states began legislation designed to restrict voting. States are now much freer to gerrymander districts. Obviously the usefulness of the Voting Rights Act was not gone because it prevented those abuses. Unions are the same; do away with the unions and the protections they provide and companies will very quickly re-institute the practices they had before unions.

I didn't make the connection because that is a hell of a stretch at best. They basically have no relevance to each other. So once again this whole people should know what I mean doesn't work. This is a prime example, two unrelated things that some how you think there is a connection. So how about you try expressing what you actually mean. It might make you slightly less of a joke.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:30 AM   #28
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Somehow I knew you wouldn't make the connection, even though I tried to hand it to you by quoting darth.

You said
The Voting Rights Act is a good example of why that's not true. People got together, demonstrated, contacted their elected representatives, etc. and got the Voting Rights Act passed.

Fifty years later the Supreme Court by a 5-4 decision said that the Act was outdated, its usefulness gone, etc. much like you claim about the unions. Within days many states began legislation designed to restrict voting. States are now much freer to gerrymander districts. Obviously the usefulness of the Voting Rights Act was not gone because it prevented those abuses. Unions are the same; do away with the unions and the protections they provide and companies will very quickly re-institute the practices they had before unions.
Yeah, laws are irrelevant. When companies stop trying to screw over their employees to save a few dollars, then unions will be unnecessary. There need not be unions among us, any more than there need be poor people among us.

And vice versa when employees stop screwing over companies they will not have to play these penny pinching games, that people that have only been on the employee side see as screwing over the employee.

Such as, did you know GM was being forced by the union to pay janitorial service employees 75 dollars an hour. Everyone screamed upper management screwed up and caused the bankruptcies. But yet when your having to pay janitors 75 dollars an hour it is a little hard to stay out of the hole. But yet you don't hear anyone saying jesus that union screwed the company over. They should penalize the union and the employees.

It shit like that people ignore, It shit like that cause companies to be ruthless when it comes to wages and benefits, how can you not see that a union cause employees more grief than it helps.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:49 AM   #29
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Actually darth to go further into this you are not aware of any laws that raised wages. Really how about a 50%hike then. Seattle passed a 15 dollar an hour for fast food workers. Oh dam that was a law and their was no union. Also on that note liberals are always pushing for higher wages, so again lawmakers doing the job of the union. One thing that is true though is that union workers do make higher wages, but that is because companies that are union are moreally selective about who they hire. Making it harder for people to get a job, that goes against everything you preach. So that alone should make you say unions are bad. I would keep going but I'm guessing this is another one of those issue that you could be shown that unions are the worst thing ever, but you would still try to argue they are good.
Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.

Darth did a little digging on this and your making double what the median wage is for your job. So basically if you were in a union you would be making a hell of a lot less money. There is no way a unionized company would pay everyone the top end scale of a salary. Since unions do collective bargaining you would never reach the top end scale of pay. So do you still really want to say unions are good and that you want to join one?
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:05 PM   #30
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Such as, did you know GM was being forced by the union to pay janitorial service employees 75 dollars an hour. Everyone screamed upper management screwed up and caused the bankruptcies. But yet when your having to pay janitors 75 dollars an hour it is a little hard to stay out of the hole. But yet you don't hear anyone saying jesus that union screwed the company over. They should penalize the union and the employees.

It shit like that people ignore, It shit like that cause companies to be ruthless when it comes to wages and benefits, how can you not see that a union cause employees more grief than it helps.

We ignore it, because you make up stories like this to justify many things. I worked for Fanuc Robotics from 1995 to 1999. I spent the Majority of that time at Detroit-Hamtramick Assembly, which is a GM plan, in fact it considered to be center of GM Assembly operations. I know that at that time the hourly pay for a production worker was about $21/hour, and a skilled trade was about $23.50/hour. Now I am sure those number have done up in the last 18 years, and that does not include the cost of benefits, but I am sorry I cannot believe Janitors were paid $75/hour!!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:09 PM   #31
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Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.

Darth did a little digging on this and your making double what the median wage is for your job. So basically if you were in a union you would be making a hell of a lot less money. There is no way a unionized company would pay everyone the top end scale of a salary. Since unions do collective bargaining you would never reach the top end scale of pay. So do you still really want to say unions are good and that you want to join one?

I would like to add to this, I work a job that only pays $18.36 a hour, I have no vacation, no retirement, pay 100% of my own health care ($576/per month), I have a MASTERS DEGREE in my field, and have been at the company nearly 11 years!!! So I am sorry if you feel bad about only making $37/hour, but I would gladly trade you, in a heart beet!!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:35 PM   #32
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Such as, did you know GM was being forced by the union to pay janitorial service employees 75 dollars an hour. Everyone screamed upper management screwed up and caused the bankruptcies. But yet when your having to pay janitors 75 dollars an hour it is a little hard to stay out of the hole. But yet you don't hear anyone saying jesus that union screwed the company over. They should penalize the union and the employees.

It shit like that people ignore, It shit like that cause companies to be ruthless when it comes to wages and benefits, how can you not see that a union cause employees more grief than it helps.

We ignore it, because you make up stories like this to justify many things. I worked for Fanuc Robotics from 1995 to 1999. I spent the Majority of that time at Detroit-Hamtramick Assembly, which is a GM plan, in fact it considered to be center of GM Assembly operations. I know that at that time the hourly pay for a production worker was about $21/hour, and a skilled trade was about $23.50/hour. Now I am sure those number have done up in the last 18 years, and that does not include the cost of benefits, but I am sorry I cannot believe Janitors were paid $75/hour!!!

You are correct I misspoke, Total paid to janitors was 73.50. Everything added together of wages and benefits came to 73.50 and hour.

Also to point out Iron if you were getting your health insurance paid that comes out to 3.32 an hour. So if your company paid that you would be getting close to 21 an hour. Then you throw in paid leave which the national average is 2.30 per hour. Your up to 23 per hour. Then I couldn't find any solid numbers but you throw in retirement plan, pension plan, paid health care after retirement, unemployment insurance. It would be real easy to run the pay rate to over fifty dollars an hours. Those are common benefits offered so you start adding benefits that are not common such discounts on cars as the GM employees got, stock option, saving options, and many many more 75 an hour is not a shocking number.

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Old 07-18-2017, 11:03 PM   #33
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We ignore it, because you make up stories like this to justify many things. I worked for Fanuc Robotics from 1995 to 1999. I spent the Majority of that time at Detroit-Hamtramick Assembly, which is a GM plan, in fact it considered to be center of GM Assembly operations. I know that at that time the hourly pay for a production worker was about $21/hour, and a skilled trade was about $23.50/hour. Now I am sure those number have done up in the last 18 years, and that does not include the cost of benefits, but I am sorry I cannot believe Janitors were paid $75/hour!!!

You are correct I misspoke, Total paid to janitors was 73.50. Everything added together of wages and benefits came to 73.50 and hour.

Also to point out Iron if you were getting your health insurance paid that comes out to 3.32 an hour. So if your company paid that you would be getting close to 21 an hour. Then you throw in paid leave which the national average is 2.30 per hour. Your up to 23 per hour. Then I couldn't find any solid numbers but you throw in retirement plan, pension plan, paid health care after retirement, unemployment insurance. It would be real easy to run the pay rate to over fifty dollars an hours. Those are common benefits offered so you start adding benefits that are not common such discounts on cars as the GM employees got, stock option, saving options, and many many more 75 an hour is not a shocking number.

Need help with your math, 588 divided by 160 is $3.60. But not with standing, if that janitor get paid the same as a production worker, you are saying the cost of Benefits is 52.50 an hour, and say such with out any link or other proof. So what is the Cost of the CEO of GM on a per hour bases, how about Delphi (we have not yet gotten to them and their taking away of Pensions form SOME employee in 2009), or Microsoft, Apple, etc.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:05 AM   #34
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You are correct I misspoke, Total paid to janitors was 73.50. Everything added together of wages and benefits came to 73.50 and hour.

Also to point out Iron if you were getting your health insurance paid that comes out to 3.32 an hour. So if your company paid that you would be getting close to 21 an hour. Then you throw in paid leave which the national average is 2.30 per hour. Your up to 23 per hour. Then I couldn't find any solid numbers but you throw in retirement plan, pension plan, paid health care after retirement, unemployment insurance. It would be real easy to run the pay rate to over fifty dollars an hours. Those are common benefits offered so you start adding benefits that are not common such discounts on cars as the GM employees got, stock option, saving options, and many many more 75 an hour is not a shocking number.

Need help with your math, 588 divided by 160 is $3.60. But not with standing, if that janitor get paid the same as a production worker, you are saying the cost of Benefits is 52.50 an hour, and say such with out any link or other proof. So what is the Cost of the CEO of GM on a per hour bases, how about Delphi (we have not yet gotten to them and their taking away of Pensions form SOME employee in 2009), or Microsoft, Apple, etc.

I don't need help with my math do you? there is 52 weeks in a year not 48. And yes roughly that is what is paid. I have not linked anything as GM doesn't release any info on contracts it has with the union. These numbers are gustimates off of what little info has been leaked and Gm's tax releases. But I will concede that the 75 dollars looks like it is benefits paid out divided by the numbers of workers. Which makes it a little inaccurate since it includes pensions being paid out. But going with that it has been leaked gm workers were getting 28 an hour, you add in the national average of healthcare, and paid leave that puts them up to 34 an hour. GM was also paying into a pension plan a retirement plan,and a unemployment insurance plan, so those other benefits would easily put them at over 50 an hour.

I love the wording on that taking away their pension. How do you take away something that is actually not owned by a person. The pension was not a dual pay, it was something the company offered. the employee put nothing in, so it was a courtesy that Gm and other companies did. To get up set over not receiving free shit, is BS.
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:52 AM   #35
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Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.

Darth did a little digging on this and your making double what the median wage is for your job. So basically if you were in a union you would be making a hell of a lot less money. There is no way a unionized company would pay everyone the top end scale of a salary. Since unions do collective bargaining you would never reach the top end scale of pay. So do you still really want to say unions are good and that you want to join one?
[citation needed], because I'm a web developer with 5 or 6 years of experience. According to Glassdoor, I'm making a bit below average for Seattle, and well below average for a senior web dev. Plus, collective bargaining agreements for salary can and often do include provisions for different wages according to seniority. (Of course, that's seniority with the company, not years of experience, so I, with my three jobs in the past year, am still SOL on that front.)
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:11 AM   #36
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Need help with your math, 588 divided by 160 is $3.60. But not with standing, if that janitor get paid the same as a production worker, you are saying the cost of Benefits is 52.50 an hour, and say such with out any link or other proof. So what is the Cost of the CEO of GM on a per hour bases, how about Delphi (we have not yet gotten to them and their taking away of Pensions form SOME employee in 2009), or Microsoft, Apple, etc.

I don't need help with my math do you? there is 52 weeks in a year not 48. And yes roughly that is what is paid. I have not linked anything as GM doesn't release any info on contracts it has with the union. These numbers are gustimates off of what little info has been leaked and Gm's tax releases. But I will concede that the 75 dollars looks like it is benefits paid out divided by the numbers of workers. Which makes it a little inaccurate since it includes pensions being paid out. But going with that it has been leaked gm workers were getting 28 an hour, you add in the national average of healthcare, and paid leave that puts them up to 34 an hour. GM was also paying into a pension plan a retirement plan,and a unemployment insurance plan, so those other benefits would easily put them at over 50 an hour.

I love the wording on that taking away their pension. How do you take away something that is actually not owned by a person. The pension was not a dual pay, it was something the company offered. the employee put nothing in, so it was a courtesy that Gm and other companies did. To get up set over not receiving free shit, is BS.

Earlier in this thread you spoke about how CxO benefits are make secure by the nature of a contract, and how employee need to read there employee handbook to see if there benefits are also secure. Well Delphi Pension was part of that employee handbook were it said after X number of years of service you get Y amount of a pension. Now Delphi in 2009 Ended ther Pension program for all Non Union workers, even those that had already retired. Note that I said NON UNION, because Obama made sure the UAW pension were secure. And NON of the CxO had to give up any benefits!!!

Now if the Employee handbook stated such, and the workers for filled there part of the agreement, and Pension and other benefits were secured for others, WHY did the non-union workers loose so much?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:14 AM   #37
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Darth did a little digging on this and your making double what the median wage is for your job. So basically if you were in a union you would be making a hell of a lot less money. There is no way a unionized company would pay everyone the top end scale of a salary. Since unions do collective bargaining you would never reach the top end scale of pay. So do you still really want to say unions are good and that you want to join one?
[citation needed], because I'm a web developer with 5 or 6 years of experience. According to Glassdoor, I'm making a bit below average for Seattle, and well below average for a senior web dev. Plus, collective bargaining agreements for salary can and often do include provisions for different wages according to seniority. (Of course, that's seniority with the company, not years of experience, so I, with my three jobs in the past year, am still SOL on that front.)

Well let see the Average wage for a Master in Engineering, with 20 years of Experience is 96K a year (Plus Benefits), and I am making only 38K!!! A large part of my losses were due to Affirmative Action. Now I can't remember if it was you or another liberal here who defended what was done to me with "not you know what it feels like to be a black man", and yet you are griping about making more then DOUBLE what I am, before I pay healthcare and considering my lack of vacation or retirement!!! So Sorry, but after the AA defense, cry me a river!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:30 AM   #38
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Darth did a little digging on this and your making double what the median wage is for your job. So basically if you were in a union you would be making a hell of a lot less money. There is no way a unionized company would pay everyone the top end scale of a salary. Since unions do collective bargaining you would never reach the top end scale of pay. So do you still really want to say unions are good and that you want to join one?
[citation needed], because I'm a web developer with 5 or 6 years of experience. According to Glassdoor, I'm making a bit below average for Seattle, and well below average for a senior web dev. Plus, collective bargaining agreements for salary can and often do include provisions for different wages according to seniority. (Of course, that's seniority with the company, not years of experience, so I, with my three jobs in the past year, am still SOL on that front.)


My mistake I thought you were an IT tech.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:35 AM   #39
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I don't need help with my math do you? there is 52 weeks in a year not 48. And yes roughly that is what is paid. I have not linked anything as GM doesn't release any info on contracts it has with the union. These numbers are gustimates off of what little info has been leaked and Gm's tax releases. But I will concede that the 75 dollars looks like it is benefits paid out divided by the numbers of workers. Which makes it a little inaccurate since it includes pensions being paid out. But going with that it has been leaked gm workers were getting 28 an hour, you add in the national average of healthcare, and paid leave that puts them up to 34 an hour. GM was also paying into a pension plan a retirement plan,and a unemployment insurance plan, so those other benefits would easily put them at over 50 an hour.

I love the wording on that taking away their pension. How do you take away something that is actually not owned by a person. The pension was not a dual pay, it was something the company offered. the employee put nothing in, so it was a courtesy that Gm and other companies did. To get up set over not receiving free shit, is BS.

Earlier in this thread you spoke about how CxO benefits are make secure by the nature of a contract, and how employee need to read there employee handbook to see if there benefits are also secure. Well Delphi Pension was part of that employee handbook were it said after X number of years of service you get Y amount of a pension. Now Delphi in 2009 Ended ther Pension program for all Non Union workers, even those that had already retired. Note that I said NON UNION, because Obama made sure the UAW pension were secure. And NON of the CxO had to give up any benefits!!!

Now if the Employee handbook stated such, and the workers for filled there part of the agreement, and Pension and other benefits were secured for others, WHY did the non-union workers loose so much?


Again unless you signed a contract stating you would get a pension your SOL. More in likely the union made sure employees had a contract. So non union workers didn't ask for it they didn't get it.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:28 AM   #40
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I didn't make the connection because that is a hell of a stretch at best. They basically have no relevance to each other. So once again this whole people should know what I mean doesn't work. This is a prime example, two unrelated things that some how you think there is a connection. So how about you try expressing what you actually mean. It might make you slightly less of a joke.
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