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Old 06-21-2017, 02:20 PM   #41
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So lets jump from Chris Rock to Will Smith. I recently watch Suicide Squad, and was a little upset over one line. At one point Will Smith's Character Dead Shot, says "Just White People that Problem"! Really, people actually believe that everything is just make east if you are white? White people just everything handed to them because they are white?

No White person had every gone to a Univeristy Professor office hours and been told "I's tenured don't have to help students any more"? Because it was said to me, but a BLACK PROFESSOR!!!

No White person every had to work harder to achieve! After All I had to work twice had hard for twice as long to be my BSEE Degree, and pay for all my education myself, as well as pay off all of my student loans on my own.

No White person had ever been lied to my a company and screwed over in terms of benefits and pay? Too many to state all of them in my case!

No white person has every been turned down for a job for The color of their skin, their nation of origin, or there ancestry?

And that Liberia does not exist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia

But since this idea continues to be but forth, that white people do not suffer at all in our society, when is someone going to "white people" my problems?
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:40 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
No, it is not misleading. And, it is not irrelevant. That black people are responsible for disproportionate amount of crime is the central issue as to why they don't enjoy the success as any other race. You trying to spin the figures doesn't solve anything - as if to say, "see, we're quibbling over a .4% difference!" I was going to say, LOL, nice try. But, this is too important of a point to simply laugh off.

Black people make up about 13% of the population, yet in virtually every category, they outpace other races in crimes committed according to the FBI's UCR (for 2012). It is not like I'm enlightening you on this - you know this. But for everyone else, lets pull just a few stats out of the table the FBI provides:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBI UCR 2012
Murder - whites account for 48.2% and blacks account for 49.4%. American Indian 1.2% and Asians 1.2%. At least according to 2012 data, black people account for more murders committed than any other race despite only being about 13% of the population. This should be very troubling.

Robbery - whites account for 43.4% and blacks account for 54.9%.

DUI - some good news for black people. They only account for 12.1% of DUIs. White people apparently love to drink and drive at 84.6%


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Yeah, but random misfortune should hit everybody equally, and not have any significant effect on the average for each group, which is the part I actually cared about and which you removed as inconvenient.

^See above. "Random misfortune" in the form of an extremely high crime rate for black people plays into their lot in life. When your race accounts for 28% of all crime (or at least arrests) yet you only account for 13% of the population... Well, of course it isn't going to affect all races equally. Come on, man. A black person, just based on the sheer numbers is much more likely to either have been in or know a family member in the criminal justice system. That would seem to have a large effect on their collective ability to shake off life's curveballs, wouldn't it? Your point would have been valid if the crime rate wasn't so out of whack. In other words, ceteris parabus doesn't really apply in this case, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.

We can't just excuse away the black crime rate as due to poverty in perpetuity. Or, I guess we can - but nothing will ever change. Other groups come here with nothing, thus, are in poverty. Yet, they don't sink into a life of crime. Why is that? Why do Asians do well despite poverty? How is it that Asian immigrants are more adept at climbing out of poverty and avoiding crime? Why does this "life of crime and poverty" phenomenon seem to affect the black family more than other races?

The study you provide has limitations and really seems to suggest that having an African sounding name is what limits the candidate - I'd like to see the study include some crazy white names like "Apple" or "Reality Winner", you know, just to see how they'd be treated.

My first thought was actually the salary range for these jobs: $31,000-38,000. That is awful low for any Ivy League graduate especially one majoring in Business (as the study says they used Business and Psychology majors). I would expect a person with a Bachelors from Harvard to be starting out much higher than $31-38k. Why would someone with a business degree from Harvard be applying for a job making way less than the average starting salary for Harvard business grad?

So, perhaps a study flaw was that these fake candidates were viewed as overqualified. That's a real thing, too. I interviewed people last week and this week and many are way overqualified. You think, "well, that's a good thing for you". No, its really not. Because most stay for a short period of time until they find something better. But, that's another topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Why is that? Because they are merely black and different looking? Or because they, in fact, do account for a disproportional amount of crime in the USA. It is a fact, sadly. It is what it is. There are reasons for it. I'm sure we disagree as to those reasons. But, if they sharply reduced their crime rate, I'm sure people would not view them as criminals.
The thing is, disproportionality is irrelevant and misleading. It'd be true if black people were responsible for 2 murders a year to the 1 committed by white people. Putting your argument another way, you're calling black people a criminal race because only 99.5% of them are law-abiding citizens, compared to 99.9% of white people. This seems a trifle unfair.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results.
But, as we know - life isn't fair. Regardless of color, you can take two people would put in the same effort and one might not have good luck. One might be saddled with bad health or just not be in the right place at the right time. It is just the way things are... It isn't limited to black people. I know plenty of white people who put in effort, who do the right things - one will luck into a good job and the other one seems to get stuck at a low paying job. That's life.
Yeah, but random misfortune should hit everybody equally, and not have any significant effect on the average for each group, which is the part I actually cared about and which you removed as inconvenient.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.
^See the crime rate. That explains a LOT more than you ever want to admit. You know what - why don't you explain why the crime rates for black people is so much higher? Why is that?
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.


I have pointed out the issue with using the names in the studies to show black people are hired less often. He has used several different ones,and while it uses glaring obvious black names it does not use that criteria for white names. You don't see a Cletus, or a billy bob. I have also pointed out to him that you run into a lot of Asians whose parents know a name is a big factor in life so you will run into Asians named eric, fred, ect. But he will continue to preach by these studies that are skewed, because reality hurts too much.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
No, it is not misleading. And, it is not irrelevant. That black people are responsible for disproportionate amount of crime is the central issue as to why they don't enjoy the success as any other race. You trying to spin the figures doesn't solve anything - as if to say, "see, we're quibbling over a .4% difference!" I was going to say, LOL, nice try. But, this is too important of a point to simply laugh off.

Black people make up about 13% of the population, yet in virtually every category, they outpace other races in crimes committed according to the FBI's UCR (for 2012). It is not like I'm enlightening you on this - you know this. But for everyone else, lets pull just a few stats out of the table the FBI provides:
Yes, but that still says not a Goddamn thing about the actual rate of criminality among black people, saving that it's somewhat higher. Most criminals being black people does not mean most black people are criminals. Most black people are in fact honest citizens, same as most white people. So why is it that criminals are seen as representative of the black community, and not those honest citizens that make up the majority?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.
We can't just excuse away the black crime rate as due to poverty in perpetuity. Or, I guess we can - but nothing will ever change. Other groups come here with nothing, thus, are in poverty. Yet, they don't sink into a life of crime. Why is that? Why do Asians do well despite poverty? How is it that Asian immigrants are more adept at climbing out of poverty and avoiding crime? Why does this "life of crime and poverty" phenomenon seem to affect the black family more than other races?
The big thing, IMO, is that getting out of poverty requires getting a job, and as we have seen, most employers don't like hiring black people. Alternatively, it requires getting enough welfare to support yourself without turning to crime, but I know how incredibly dubious you are about giving aid to black people.
Quote:
The study you provide has limitations and really seems to suggest that having an African sounding name is what limits the candidate - I'd like to see the study include some crazy white names like "Apple" or "Reality Winner", you know, just to see how they'd be treated.
At the same time, though, I'd think "Harvard grad with good major" would weigh rather more heavily on a hiring manager's mind than "Kid's named Jamal", and am slightly concerned that you reverse those priorities.

Quote:
My first thought was actually the salary range for these jobs: $31,000-38,000. That is awful low for any Ivy League graduate especially one majoring in Business (as the study says they used Business and Psychology majors). I would expect a person with a Bachelors from Harvard to be starting out much higher than $31-38k. Why would someone with a business degree from Harvard be applying for a job making way less than the average starting salary for Harvard business grad?
Presumably they stuck to low-salary jobs so they could keep the state schools in the mix, and measure how much more likely a black Duke grad was to get hired for a given opening than a white boy from a state school
Quote:
So, perhaps a study flaw was that these fake candidates were viewed as overqualified. That's a real thing, too. I interviewed people last week and this week and many are way overqualified. You think, "well, that's a good thing for you". No, its really not. Because most stay for a short period of time until they find something better. But, that's another topic...
That should have affected the black and white applicants equally, though.

Darth you do the math your a smart guy. Lower population and higher crime rate. So that means when you run into a black person the likely hood their a criminal is much higher than the likely hood than that of a white person.

Its no different than when cops pulling over black people was such a hot topic, and everyone wanted to know why cops were such on edge when they pulled a black person over. It was because the numbers boiled down to that for 0ne in every ten traffic stops of a black person the cops would encounter a black person with a criminal history. While on whites it was one in every one hundred.

This boils down to some really basic math. I'm not sure why you are so resistant to that. Is it you just don't want to believe it. Is it you have not experienced it. Plain and simple the numbers are what the numbers are.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:58 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Yes, but that still says not a Goddamn thing about the actual rate of criminality among black people, saving that it's somewhat higher. Most criminals being black people does not mean most black people are criminals. Most black people are in fact honest citizens, same as most white people. So why is it that criminals are seen as representative of the black community, and not those honest citizens that make up the majority?

Somewhat higher? Its a lot higher. It destroys black lives and, sadly, you excuse it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
The big thing, IMO, is that getting out of poverty requires getting a job, and as we have seen, most employers don't like hiring black people. Alternatively, it requires getting enough welfare to support yourself without turning to crime, but I know how incredibly dubious you are about giving aid to black people.

I don't think that is true. Because you cited a flawed study that showed employers didn't like hiring people with ethnic names doesn't validate your assertion. I'd like to see one with Asian candidates named Ho Lee Fuk or white people named Billy Bob Cooter or Apple or Moon Unit. My assertion is most companies bend over backwards to hire qualified black people. I just interviewed 12 people in the last week. I didn't give a thought to anyone's status as male or female or black or white. Having said that, I was lobbying heavily for this black woman that had 20 years experience in our field and knocked the interview out of the park. I thought she was a no-brainer. Everyone agreed. However, the boss, in his infinite wisdom didn't hire her because he said, "She's too qualified" and "we wouldn't be able to keep her". And, he's probably right. The position she was interviewing for was well below what she could get many other places. She could easily get more money somewhere else. In fact, what my boss did was set her up with an interview with a rival agency for a much better position. Yeah, we're so racist....
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
Somewhat higher? Its a lot higher. It destroys black lives and, sadly, you excuse it.
Not that much higher, actually. I ran some numbers on the burglary statistics you mention, and the difference actually is about .4 percentage points; 99.5% of black people didn't commit robbery last year, compared to 99.9% of whites. I didn't do the same calculations for murder, rape, etc, but I expect them to to be broadly similar. So, uh, how about you respond to the second half of that paragraph, the portion that actually matters?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
The big thing, IMO, is that getting out of poverty requires getting a job, and as we have seen, most employers don't like hiring black people. Alternatively, it requires getting enough welfare to support yourself without turning to crime, but I know how incredibly dubious you are about giving aid to black people.
I don't think that is true. Because you cited a flawed study that showed employers didn't like hiring people with ethnic names doesn't validate your assertion. I'd like to see one with Asian candidates named Ho Lee Fuk or white people named Billy Bob Cooter or Apple or Moon Unit.
Actually, I found a study which tried the reverse; it gave everybody good WASPy first names and used last names to signal race, choosing ones that were primarily black/white/Hispanic according to the Census. They found a minor but statistically insignificant bias towards the white-marked resumes, which they concluded could mean that racism is finally over, or that it could be a result of last names being a poor signal of race. Without looking at the study, would you think Chloe Washington or Ryan Jefferson was the white fictional applicant? click to show Also, old and anecdotal as it is, I like this article, where Jonny Williams notes that he got a lot of interest from one company up until they saw his face, and Barry J Sykes complained about having to change the name on his resume just to get his foot in the door.

At the same time, though, as I said, "Harvard grad" is supposed to outweigh "Jamal Jenkins" on a resume. Isn't that kinda the point of education being a great equalizer? Your name/race/gender is irrelevant, your skills and training will speak for you? They're not going to pass you over as probably a criminal when you're definitely an MBA? Isn't this the whole reason you fucks keep saying that black people need to go to school, so they can get a fair shake?
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:01 AM   #46
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Also, WRT black crime rates: Iron_warmonger's initial complaint was that Affirmative Action punished him for being white, that because he's a member of a historically oppressor group, he was passed over for a job, that even though he personally did nothing wrong, he is being held accountable for the actions of other members of his race. We can agree that this is wrong, yes? Even I will agree that it's unfair and one of my big issues with most implementations of affirmative action.

So why do you have no problems holding all black people accountable for the actions of their criminal minority?
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:19 AM   #47
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Not that much higher, actually. I ran some numbers on the burglary statistics you mention, and the difference actually is about .4 percentage points; 99.5% of black people didn't commit robbery last year, compared to 99.9% of whites. I didn't do the same calculations for murder, rape, etc, but I expect them to to be broadly similar. So, uh, how about you respond to the second half of that paragraph, the portion that actually matters?
New York City also ran some numbers, they differ drastically from yours

click to show
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:53 PM   #48
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I had to go back to our original debate question.

Are American black people (who descended from slaves) better off being born in the USA or Africa? Yes or no and a brief explanation as to why you think that.

I say yes, because, as wrong as slavery was - and as racist and unfair was Jim Crow, segregation - black people in 2017 were not slaves. They are fortunate enough to be born in the USA rather than Africa. If you were to do a survey and ask "would you rather be born in the USA and grow up here? Or would you rather be born in Africa and grow up there?" - what results do you think you'd get?

As for employers not wanting to hire black people. The studies you cite are mixed. Large institutional racism is gone from American corporations because of EO laws and frankly, if they were even suspected of being racist, they'd get sued and get so much negative press it would not be worth it to them to be racist.

A point we might can agree upon... Can there be improvement? Yes, I think we can both agree on that general idea. I think there is a wide chasm in how we believe that improvement can occur. Shutting down Mizzou is not the way to improve things. Calling for "letting white people fucking die" is not a way to improve things. Simply throwing money at the issue is not the way.

The way have lasting improvement and betterment is for the community to look inward. Don Lemon accurately points out that 72% of African-American births are out of wedlock. That is a troubling figure that even Barack Obama highlighted. Rather than focusing on simplistically laying the fault on white people - or "is society's fault" - you have to start peeling back why the black family has disintegrated. And, you have to understand that there is hard data to show that an absentee father puts a child at severe risk for having all kinds of trouble. click to show

That's a start. Much harder to solve and much easier to just blame society for being racist. Listen to this black man talk about his view of the top five problems facing black Americans.
click to show
Noticeably absent on the list is "racism". This guy seems to get it. Unfortunately, he's in the minority.



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We are debating it, are we not? Whereas I haven't seen anybody stepping forward to defend "spearchuckers" as totally not racist.

There are two things that you're ignoring, depending on which justification for AA you prefer. If you think it's to make up for slavery/Jim Crow/all that shit that went away when Dr King told us about that dream he had, then inherited wealth/poverty means that yeah, actually, that kid is suffering for those injustices and white people are benefiting from them, to the tune of about $130K difference in household wealth. If you think it's to make up for American society being kinda shitty to black people in general and hesitating to hire them in particular, FUCKING LOL if you think that's over and done with.

E: Not to say that Affirmative Action is perfect, I have issues with the focus on race above socioeconomic status, but the issue is immensely more nuanced than you're prepared to acknowledge.
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:41 PM   #49
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Not that much higher, actually. I ran some numbers on the burglary statistics you mention, and the difference actually is about .4 percentage points; 99.5% of black people didn't commit robbery last year, compared to 99.9% of whites. I didn't do the same calculations for murder, rape, etc, but I expect them to to be broadly similar. So, uh, how about you respond to the second half of that paragraph, the portion that actually matters?
New York City also ran some numbers, they differ drastically from yours
Well, yes, because they're looking for different numbers than I am. I'm looking for the number of criminals among black people, they're looking for the number of black people among criminals.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
As for employers not wanting to hire black people. The studies you cite are mixed. Large institutional racism is gone from American corporations because of EO laws and frankly, if they were even suspected of being racist, they'd get sued and get so much negative press it would not be worth it to them to be racist.
The problem is that companies would only get sued if racial bias could be proved to exist, and companies can always claim to make their selections based on some other non-protected class. Actual qualifications on resume, for instance, or culture fit. Unless the hiring manager actually says "No Niggers Need Apply", they're actually pretty safe from lawsuits over that.

Quote:
A point we might can agree upon... Can there be improvement? Yes, I think we can both agree on that general idea. I think there is a wide chasm in how we believe that improvement can occur.
Yeah, we both acknowledge that black people need to get better, but I think white people have some improvement to make as well.

Like, the issue with your suggestions is that they'll help the kids trapped in the ghettos, but they don't do anything for the comfortable middle-class kids who are still going to get fucked over by racist hiring managers and police, they don't do anything for the Harvard grad whose only crime was putting "Lamar McGee" at the top of his resume.

(Ah, you'll say, but if the black community can do this, Lamar will no longer be held back by the criminal stain on his race. To which I will repeat, holding Lamar back because of his race is racism, no less than holding back iron_warmonger because of his race.)
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:52 PM   #51
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You still didn't answer the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Are American black people (who descended from slaves) better off being born in the USA or Africa? Yes or no and a brief explanation as to why you think that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
The problem is that companies would only get sued if racial bias could be proved to exist, and companies can always claim to make their selections based on some other non-protected class. Actual qualifications on resume, for instance, or culture fit. Unless the hiring manager actually says "No Niggers Need Apply", they're actually pretty safe from lawsuits over that.

So, you can't really prove it... I guess that's progress? I mean, I can't prove that my boss didn't want to hire this one guy because he was morbidly obese. But, that's the reason. I could tell he was immediately turned off by the guy despite an good resume, education and experience and doing well in the interview. In fact, going off on a tangent here... I think there is more bias towards fat people than black people. Everyone is hyper sensitive to a black candidate. Whereas, nobody thinks too much of "that guy looks like a fat slob". Or, another case recently, a candidate with multiple piercings and tattoos. Anyway, gone are the days that people would say "We don't hire niggers". Progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Like, the issue with your suggestions is that they'll help the kids trapped in the ghettos, but they don't do anything for the comfortable middle-class kids who are still going to get fucked over by racist hiring managers and police, they don't do anything for the Harvard grad whose only crime was putting "Lamar McGee" at the top of his resume.

I think it is more important to help the kids trapped in the ghetto for obvious reasons. You keep saying there are racist hiring managers and I just haven't seen it. Have you actually experienced it? Have you sit in on interviews? People are so worried about being called racist, I've seen the exact opposite. Every opportunity in the world given to black candidates that meet the qualifications. I watched a company hire a black woman who did not have the experience necessary for the position in which she applied. Not only did they hire her but they paid her more than her peers who did have the experience. When I asked what was up with that - I was literally told, "they wanted her because she's a black woman". No shit. So, not only do I question how much of this you claim goes on, I've seen the exact opposite happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
The problem is that companies would only get sued if racial bias could be proved to exist, and companies can always claim to make their selections based on some other non-protected class. Actual qualifications on resume, for instance, or culture fit. Unless the hiring manager actually says "No Niggers Need Apply", they're actually pretty safe from lawsuits over that.

Quote:
A point we might can agree upon... Can there be improvement? Yes, I think we can both agree on that general idea. I think there is a wide chasm in how we believe that improvement can occur.
Yeah, we both acknowledge that black people need to get better, but I think white people have some improvement to make as well.

Like, the issue with your suggestions is that they'll help the kids trapped in the ghettos, but they don't do anything for the comfortable middle-class kids who are still going to get fucked over by racist hiring managers and police, they don't do anything for the Harvard grad whose only crime was putting "Lamar McGee" at the top of his resume.

(Ah, you'll say, but if the black community can do this, Lamar will no longer be held back by the criminal stain on his race. To which I will repeat, holding Lamar back because of his race is racism, no less than holding back iron_warmonger because of his race.)
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
(Ah, you'll say, but if the black community can do this, Lamar will no longer be held back by the criminal stain on his race. To which I will repeat, holding Lamar back because of his race is racism, no less than holding back iron_warmonger because of his race.)

But there is one major difference, Lamar is discriminated against by individuals, what was done to me was done by a government decree!

Also there are a number of people who will stand up for Lamar, both Black and White, but for me I have been told, by the same people who will stand up for Lamar, "well if some privileged white boy has to lose out on the hopes and dreams of his life, that is just too bad for him, there is a nice field go lay down and die". And YES that is a quote that was said to me on Facebook two years ago, but similar statement have been make to me many many times over the last twelve years, even here!

There is far far more of a difference then you want to realize.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:51 PM   #53
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Actually, I think someone on here told you that, if I recall correctly. But, your point is made.



Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
(Ah, you'll say, but if the black community can do this, Lamar will no longer be held back by the criminal stain on his race. To which I will repeat, holding Lamar back because of his race is racism, no less than holding back iron_warmonger because of his race.)

But there is one major difference, Lamar is discriminated against by individuals, what was done to me was done by a government decree!

Also there are a number of people who will stand up for Lamar, but Black and White, but for me I have been told, by the same people who will stand up for Lamar, "well if some privileged white boy has to lose out on the hopes and dreams of his life, that is just too bad for him, there is a nice filed go lay down and die". And YES that is a quote that was said to me on Facebook two years ago, but similar statement have been make to me many many times over the last twelve years, even here!

There is far far more of a difference then you want to realize.
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:16 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
The problem is that companies would only get sued if racial bias could be proved to exist, and companies can always claim to make their selections based on some other non-protected class. Actual qualifications on resume, for instance, or culture fit. Unless the hiring manager actually says "No Niggers Need Apply", they're actually pretty safe from lawsuits over that.

So, you can't really prove it... I guess that's progress? I mean, I can't prove that my boss didn't want to hire this one guy because he was morbidly obese. But, that's the reason. I could tell he was immediately turned off by the guy despite an good resume, education and experience and doing well in the interview. In fact, going off on a tangent here... I think there is more bias towards fat people than black people. Everyone is hyper sensitive to a black candidate. Whereas, nobody thinks too much of "that guy looks like a fat slob". Or, another case recently, a candidate with multiple piercings and tattoos. Anyway, gone are the days that people would say "We don't hire niggers". Progress.
Only inasmuch that things are less bad than they were, but the bigotry still exists.

WRT bias against obese or tattooed people, you can choose to be fat (glandular conditions notwithstanding), and you can choose to get inked up, and you can choose to be a Democrat, but you can't choose to be black. Judging people based on their choices is OK, judging people based on things outside their control is not.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Like, the issue with your suggestions is that they'll help the kids trapped in the ghettos, but they don't do anything for the comfortable middle-class kids who are still going to get fucked over by racist hiring managers and police, they don't do anything for the Harvard grad whose only crime was putting "Lamar McGee" at the top of his resume.

I think it is more important to help the kids trapped in the ghetto for obvious reasons.
Oh, of course, but the issue is that it's only half the problem. If we do help a black kid out of the ghetto, and into Harvard, he's still going to run into the same problems as Lamar McGee, who's 30% less likely to get a callback simply because he put "Lamar" at the top of his resume instead of "Greg". As much help as the kids in the ghettos need, I'd rather remove the obstacles faced by the people who're already trying to get ahead before I encourage more people to try.
Quote:
You keep saying there are racist hiring managers and I just haven't seen it. Have you actually experienced it? Have you sit in on interviews? People are so worried about being called racist, I've seen the exact opposite. Every opportunity in the world given to black candidates that meet the qualifications. I watched a company hire a black woman who did not have the experience necessary for the position in which she applied. Not only did they hire her but they paid her more than her peers who did have the experience. When I asked what was up with that - I was literally told, "they wanted her because she's a black woman". No shit. So, not only do I question how much of this you claim goes on, I've seen the exact opposite happen.
Yes, thank you for your single example, now go back and read the studies I posted which drew from thousands of examples.
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:23 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
(Ah, you'll say, but if the black community can do this, Lamar will no longer be held back by the criminal stain on his race. To which I will repeat, holding Lamar back because of his race is racism, no less than holding back iron_warmonger because of his race.)
But there is one major difference, Lamar is discriminated against by individuals, what was done to me was done by a government decree!
Is that really a major difference? Like, if every job you applied to told you that they wanted somebody more African because of company policy, would that be substantially more OK with you than because the law says so?
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Old 06-24-2017, 02:58 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
But there is one major difference, Lamar is discriminated against by individuals, what was done to me was done by a government decree!
Is that really a major difference? Like, if every job you applied to told you that they wanted somebody more African because of company policy, would that be substantially more OK with you than because the law says so?

Yes, it is a major difference. We live in a free nation, and, for better or worse, we do not have the right to tell an individual how they are required to think. I know many of the left feel it is there right to be the "thought police", but that is not something the Constitution gives the right to the government to do. So Lamar is only effected by racists individuals, they do not have the protection of the states behind them. The institution that turn me down for a job for the Color of my skin, my gender, and my nation of origins, DID!
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Old 06-24-2017, 03:34 AM   #57
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Look around. We are a nation of fat fucks. And, yeah, you can say people have a choice. But too many are taught at young age to gobble sugar like its crack. Therefore, they become fat and just simply cant lose the weight. So, yeah, its not like its an easy choice.

And, just because someone has tats and piercings doesn't meant hey are a garbage person. Why, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were a smidge judgy.

You put too much stock in those studies - which can be rigged to show whatever you want to show. I trust my experience in the real world.




Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud

So, you can't really prove it... I guess that's progress? I mean, I can't prove that my boss didn't want to hire this one guy because he was morbidly obese. But, that's the reason. I could tell he was immediately turned off by the guy despite an good resume, education and experience and doing well in the interview. In fact, going off on a tangent here... I think there is more bias towards fat people than black people. Everyone is hyper sensitive to a black candidate. Whereas, nobody thinks too much of "that guy looks like a fat slob". Or, another case recently, a candidate with multiple piercings and tattoos. Anyway, gone are the days that people would say "We don't hire niggers". Progress.
Only inasmuch that things are less bad than they were, but the bigotry still exists.

WRT bias against obese or tattooed people, you can choose to be fat (glandular conditions notwithstanding), and you can choose to get inked up, and you can choose to be a Democrat, but you can't choose to be black. Judging people based on their choices is OK, judging people based on things outside their control is not.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Like, the issue with your suggestions is that they'll help the kids trapped in the ghettos, but they don't do anything for the comfortable middle-class kids who are still going to get fucked over by racist hiring managers and police, they don't do anything for the Harvard grad whose only crime was putting "Lamar McGee" at the top of his resume.

I think it is more important to help the kids trapped in the ghetto for obvious reasons.
Oh, of course, but the issue is that it's only half the problem. If we do help a black kid out of the ghetto, and into Harvard, he's still going to run into the same problems as Lamar McGee, who's 30% less likely to get a callback simply because he put "Lamar" at the top of his resume instead of "Greg". As much help as the kids in the ghettos need, I'd rather remove the obstacles faced by the people who're already trying to get ahead before I encourage more people to try.
Quote:
You keep saying there are racist hiring managers and I just haven't seen it. Have you actually experienced it? Have you sit in on interviews? People are so worried about being called racist, I've seen the exact opposite. Every opportunity in the world given to black candidates that meet the qualifications. I watched a company hire a black woman who did not have the experience necessary for the position in which she applied. Not only did they hire her but they paid her more than her peers who did have the experience. When I asked what was up with that - I was literally told, "they wanted her because she's a black woman". No shit. So, not only do I question how much of this you claim goes on, I've seen the exact opposite happen.
Yes, thank you for your single example, now go back and read the studies I posted which drew from thousands of examples.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:11 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Look around. We are a nation of fat fucks. And, yeah, you can say people have a choice. But too many are taught at young age to gobble sugar like its crack. Therefore, they become fat and just simply cant lose the weight. So, yeah, its not like its an easy choice.

And, just because someone has tats and piercings doesn't meant hey are a garbage person. Why, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were a smidge judgy.
I didn't say anything against folk with body art, just that having body art is a choice and has consequences. Aren't you one of the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY brigade, you're normally all about how people should have thought ahead before taking a shit in the morning.
Quote:
You put too much stock in those studies - which can be rigged to show whatever you want to show. I trust my experience in the real world.
Experience which illustrates whatever point you're trying to make, as opposed to my studies, which illustrate reality.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Is that really a major difference? Like, if every job you applied to told you that they wanted somebody more African because of company policy, would that be substantially more OK with you than because the law says so?

Yes, it is a major difference. We live in a free nation, and, for better or worse, we do not have the right to tell an individual how they are required to think. I know many of the left feel it is there right to be the "thought police", but that is not something the Constitution gives the right to the government to do. So Lamar is only effected by racists individuals, they do not have the protection of the states behind them. The institution that turn me down for a job for the Color of my skin, my gender, and my nation of origins, DID!
I was referring more to the effect than principles; whether it's company or government policy screwing you over, you're still denied work because of your race, and that's unfair.
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Old 06-24-2017, 05:26 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBob
New York City also ran some numbers, they differ drastically from yours
Well, yes, because they're looking for different numbers than I am. I'm looking for the number of criminals among black people, they're looking for the number of black people among criminals.

And there you have it darth you answered your own question. You are looking for a number that meaningless in the real world. Your looking for a number that you can revolve your argument around. It doesn't really matter about the criminality within the black population as, the black population doesn't just deal with the black population. So you have to look at the reality of things. Likely hood when you meet a black person that they are a criminal is way greater than that of meeting a white person. Those are numbers that matter. Your number is meaningless and doesn't apply to the argument, other than trying to shame people.
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