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Old 06-20-2017, 03:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Without free slave labor, and the plantations it enabled, America would be several billion dollars poorer going into the 1800s than it was, a disadvantage which would only compound by comparison to Europe and Africa.
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:03 PM   #22
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But he was on such a roll there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Without free slave labor, and the plantations it enabled, America would be several billion dollars poorer going into the 1800s than it was, a disadvantage which would only compound by comparison to Europe and Africa.
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:34 PM   #23
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You call my analysis and opinion flawed?

Ok, fine, let's play this game... You say America is only great now because we had some free slave labor. Setting aside the valid point Ashson makes about non-slave states doing better economically... You are trying to say the USA got such a head start from free slave labor but that doesn't explain why Africa is still so far behind now.

I know it pains you to admit it. Which is why you said "fucking called it", but yeah, as counter-intuitive as it is, black people here in the USA today - whose ancestors came here as slaves - are much better off than they'd be if they had been born in Africa. It is true. I am not sure why that pains you so much. Whether it is because it I'm correct or because it interrupts your theory of perpetual victim hood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
"All the other races were acknowledged as first class citizens",

Irish weren't treated as first class citizens - as I posted in my earlier link. Chinese weren't treated as first class citizens, either. Yet, they adapted, assimilated and overcame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
As for "Well all the other races made it good", the other side is that "All the other races were acknowledged as first class citizens", and that still hasn't happened for black people. As I posted up the page, the stigma of being black still outweighs the prestige of being a Harvard grad in the eyes of hiring managers. Even if a black person makes it good, they still don't prosper.

Oprah has prospered. Michael Jackson prospered. Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have prospered. Colin Powell prospered. Bob Johnson has prospered. And, those are just the uber rich. There are many, many other black people who have managed to get an education, stay out the criminal justice system and make it to upper middle class - just like anyone else in this country that works hard, gets an education and stays out of jail does.

I guess I wonder why you - a white dude living in the Pacific Northwest - keep entertaining all these excuses for black people? Why is that? Was there a moment in your life that led you to advance this "theory" of yours? Was it college? Someone you knew personally? I'm genuinely interested in why you believe what you believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Yes, "Black people would have been worse off had they been left in Africa rather than being stolen as slaves" is a counterfactual, because it goes against the facts as they happened.

So, you call this counterfactual. What evidence do you have to support the idea that black people in America today would be better off had their ancestors been left in Africa. Because places like Gambia, the Congo, Ghana, etc are booming successes? That's an interesting argument you have there. I've heard people on the left use "guilt" before to say we Americans are just incredibly lucky we were, in fact, born in America. They're right about that, I freely admit. But, you're saying, "well, black people today aren't better off because their ancestors came here". How's that? Care to explain?

I think just about any group is better off if their ancestors came to America - regardless of the conditions initially. Again, one of those hard truths. And, they are undoubtedly better off if they get the chip off their shoulder about their great-great-great-great-great grandparents being slaves. Or their great-grandfather having to use a different water fountain. You know, get busy living your own life to make it the best it can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud


What is counterfactual? That black people ultimately are better off here in America than they would have been in Africa for the last 300 years? I'm not sure the point you're trying to make. But, I'm guessing you're saying they weren't treated like 1st class citizens. True. They were slaves. A lot of different immigrant groups were treated shitty when they first came to the USA. All have largely overcame it and have prospered. Save one group...
Yes, "Black people would have been worse off had they been left in Africa rather than being stolen as slaves" is a counterfactual, because it goes against the facts as they happened. It's also immensely flawed, because you're comparing Africa and America in our world where we did import several million slaves, and not the correct Africa and America without several million people worth of slave trade, which would have changed things immensely. Without free slave labor, and the plantations it enabled, America would be several billion dollars poorer going into the 1800s than it was, a disadvantage which would only compound by comparison to Europe and Africa. (Especially if the point of divergence from our timeline is America only refusing to engage in the slave trade, while the Caribbean plantations continue turning Africans into sugar and molasses and money.)(Of course, the other possibility is that America doesn't import several million African slaves, and red hair becomes the mark of an inferior race.)

As for "Well all the other races made it good", the other side is that "All the other races were acknowledged as first class citizens", and that still hasn't happened for black people. As I posted up the page, the stigma of being black still outweighs the prestige of being a Harvard grad in the eyes of hiring managers. Even if a black person makes it good, they still don't prosper.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
I suppose next you'll start arguing that slavery was a positive good for African-Americans. Nah, even if we accept that giving them Western Civilization is a net good, the government gives you Western Civilization in exchange for mere taxes, and you're still outraged at this oppressive theft of the fruits of your labors.
So, you're rolling out some speech from 1837? Ugh.... That's weak. We live in the here and now. Undoubtedly black people today actually benefited from slavery. Oh... I know, "How can he say that?" "That's outrageous!" Also true. I tried to find the clip from the Carmichael Show with David Allen Grier where he humorously explains it. Its probably out there somewhere.

Anyway, its an uncomfortable truth. Black people today are better off than they'd be if their ancestors had stayed in Africa. That doesn't take away from the terrible wrong that was done to their ancestors. Their ancestors were treated inhumanely.
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Undoubtedly black people today actually benefited from slavery.
Fucking called it.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Without free slave labor, and the plantations it enabled, America would be several billion dollars poorer going into the 1800s than it was, a disadvantage which would only compound by comparison to Europe and Africa.
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
You mean the industrial north, whose textile mills were also quite reliant on slave-picked cotton?
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:23 PM   #25
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I love how mind-boggingly privileged the "but muh Irish" argument is when discussing which ethnicities had it worse when they came over. As harsh as it may have been, they weren't LITERALLY SLAVES. They not only had a choice in the matter of coming over, but they were able to accumulate wealth at a much faster clip because they were never considered LITERALLY PROPERTY. Like, you're a pretty major blowhard on just about everything Trigglet, but you seem to be particularly tone deaf on race. Is it just that you can't actually tell the leagues of difference between "they treated that ethnicity poorly" to "they fought a war based around keeping that ethnicity as a slave"? Are you that daft?

Also, as per usual, Ashy gets it wrong. When talking about the boons of slavery, it's not comparing New York to Virginia; it's comparing Virginia, a largely agricultural state back then that relied on slave labor to itself, but now minus the free labor. VA wouldn't have magically gained all of the opportunities that NY had just because it didn't have slaves.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:24 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
You mean the industrial north, whose textile mills were also quite reliant on slave-picked cotton?

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Old 06-20-2017, 01:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASHSON
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
You mean the industrial north, whose textile mills were also quite reliant on slave-picked cotton?

The textile mills were centered in England, not the American North. They were far more dependent on Southern Cotton, to the point that the British Empire was the only nation to recognize the CSA during the Civil War! Several American Industries of the North, Ship Building, Wood Working, Brick Making, and many other had no help from Southern Slavery!

This idea that All White American, even those that came to the U.S. well After the Civil War, benefited from Slavery was created by Farrakhan, and well he can best be summed up from a song Paul Shanklin, from the album Bill Clinton the Early Years:

The Farrakhan can, because he missing race with Hate and makes the Klan look good. (sung to the music of the Candy Man)
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
As for "Well all the other races made it good", the other side is that "All the other races were acknowledged as first class citizens", and that still hasn't happened for black people. As I posted up the page, the stigma of being black still outweighs the prestige of being a Harvard grad in the eyes of hiring managers. Even if a black person makes it good, they still don't prosper.
Oprah has prospered. Michael Jackson prospered. Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have prospered. Colin Powell prospered. Bob Johnson has prospered. And, those are just the uber rich. There are many, many other black people who have managed to get an education, stay out the criminal justice system and make it to upper middle class - just like anyone else in this country that works hard, gets an education and stays out of jail does.
AND YET, black people are still seen as a criminal underrace, and not a hard-working bunch of people who've managed to breach the middle and upper classes, they are still not considered first-class citizens. And as for "These people prospered", I still like Chris Rock's comment on black people prospering in America.
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I guess I wonder why you - a white dude living in the Pacific Northwest - keep entertaining all these excuses for black people? Why is that? Was there a moment in your life that led you to advance this "theory" of yours? Was it college? Someone you knew personally? I'm genuinely interested in why you believe what you believe.
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results. Likewise, if two groups put in roughly equal effort, they should get roughly equal results, statistically speaking within margin of error within normal distribution etc. Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.
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Quote:
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Yes, "Black people would have been worse off had they been left in Africa rather than being stolen as slaves" is a counterfactual, because it goes against the facts as they happened.

So, you call this counterfactual. What evidence do you have to support the idea that black people in America today would be better off had their ancestors been left in Africa. Because places like Gambia, the Congo, Ghana, etc are booming successes? That's an interesting argument you have there. I've heard people on the left use "guilt" before to say we Americans are just incredibly lucky we were, in fact, born in America. They're right about that, I freely admit. But, you're saying, "well, black people today aren't better off because their ancestors came here". How's that? Care to explain?
As I think I said, you shouldn't compare Gambia/Congo/Ghana/etc as they are today, you should compare them as they would have been with 4 million people not stolen to go serve Americans, which probably would have improved matters slightly, although European meddling would still fuck them over in a century or two. Now, serious talk, if you use that to prove that a black kid born today is better off because we saved his grand-father from European colonialism by stealing his great-grand-father to work the cotton fields, I will add you to my killfile.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:49 PM   #29
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Yes, I can see how it could be better if the blacks whose ancestors that were brought here as slaves were born in africa now, they could still be slaves there in 2017.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShuGuy
I love how mind-boggingly privileged the "but muh Irish" argument is when discussing which ethnicities had it worse when they came over. As harsh as it may have been, they weren't LITERALLY SLAVES. They not only had a choice in the matter of coming over, but they were able to accumulate wealth at a much faster clip because they were never considered LITERALLY PROPERTY. Like, you're a pretty major blowhard on just about everything Trigglet, but you seem to be particularly tone deaf on race. Is it just that you can't actually tell the leagues of difference between "they treated that ethnicity poorly" to "they fought a war based around keeping that ethnicity as a slave"? Are you that daft?

Also, as per usual, Ashy gets it wrong. When talking about the boons of slavery, it's not comparing New York to Virginia; it's comparing Virginia, a largely agricultural state back then that relied on slave labor to itself, but now minus the free labor. VA wouldn't have magically gained all of the opportunities that NY had just because it didn't have slaves.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:23 PM   #31
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You get further and further away from the point. Purposely, no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Now, serious talk, if you use that to prove that a black kid born today is better off because we saved his grand-father from European colonialism by stealing his great-grand-father to work the cotton fields, I will add you to my killfile.

I'll ask again - What evidence do you have to support the idea that black people in America today would be better off had their ancestors been left in Africa?

I get it, man. Its a hard question for you to answer with intellectual honesty because you don't like the answer. You abhor the idea that as shitty was slavery was for black people... black people today in the USA that came from slave ancestors have it better than what they've had if they were born in Africa. You know its true.

That doesn't make slavery "right". But, it provides some context - especially in the "here and now".

But, by all means, lay out an convincing argument that proves my theory wrong. Hell, just ask a black person if they'd rather be born here or in Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
AND YET, black people are still seen as a criminal underrace

Why is that? Because they are merely black and different looking? Or because they, in fact, do account for a disproportional amount of crime in the USA. It is a fact, sadly. It is what it is. There are reasons for it. I'm sure we disagree as to those reasons. But, if they sharply reduced their crime rate, I'm sure people would not view them as criminals.

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Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results.

But, as we know - life isn't fair. Regardless of color, you can take two people would put in the same effort and one might not have good luck. One might be saddled with bad health or just not be in the right place at the right time. It is just the way things are... It isn't limited to black people. I know plenty of white people who put in effort, who do the right things - one will luck into a good job and the other one seems to get stuck at a low paying job. That's life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.

^See the crime rate. That explains a LOT more than you ever want to admit. You know what - why don't you explain why the crime rates for black people is so much higher? Why is that?
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:18 AM   #32
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I love how mind-boggingly privileged the "but muh Irish" argument is when discussing which ethnicities had it worse when they came over. As harsh as it may have been, they weren't LITERALLY SLAVES. They not only had a choice in the matter of coming over, but they were able to accumulate wealth at a much faster clip because they were never considered LITERALLY PROPERTY. Like, you're a pretty major blowhard on just about everything Trigglet, but you seem to be particularly tone deaf on race. Is it just that you can't actually tell the leagues of difference between "they treated that ethnicity poorly" to "they fought a war based around keeping that ethnicity as a slave"? Are you that daft?

Also, as per usual, Ashy gets it wrong. When talking about the boons of slavery, it's not comparing New York to Virginia; it's comparing Virginia, a largely agricultural state back then that relied on slave labor to itself, but now minus the free labor. VA wouldn't have magically gained all of the opportunities that NY had just because it didn't have slaves.

Wow ok. You need to read up on history. The first Irish over here were slaves. As britian backed away from slavery it became criminals, and rebels that were sold into slavery. The it became the indentured servant. Which was basically a big way around for britian to say we are no longer trading slaves. Because yep they were given a choice you can die here or go over there and hope you live long enough to be free. Also on that indentured servants were treated worse than slaves as you they had no monetary value and could not be traded, so their well being was of no concern as you weren't out any money if they died. So yes the Irish were slaves argument is a valid one, even if you want to call it by a different name.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ASHSON
This is actually false. The states that did not have slaves or those that freed their slaves actually did better economically that the slave owning States.
It can be argued that those States would have been significantly better off if they hadn't used slavery, which is really a quite uneconomic way of running a business.
You mean the industrial north, whose textile mills were also quite reliant on slave-picked cotton?

No I think he means the industrial north that treated mill workers worse than slaves were treated. In which the industrial north saved a lot money as they could pay them less than what it cost to feed and cloth a slave. Good try there, but slave labor was not cheap. It was guaranteed labor.
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Old 06-21-2017, 12:32 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
Oprah has prospered. Michael Jackson prospered. Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan have prospered. Colin Powell prospered. Bob Johnson has prospered. And, those are just the uber rich. There are many, many other black people who have managed to get an education, stay out the criminal justice system and make it to upper middle class - just like anyone else in this country that works hard, gets an education and stays out of jail does.
AND YET, black people are still seen as a criminal underrace, and not a hard-working bunch of people who've managed to breach the middle and upper classes, they are still not considered first-class citizens. And as for "These people prospered", I still like Chris Rock's comment on black people prospering in America.
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“I live in a place called Alpine, New Jersey. My house costs millions of dollars – don’t hate the player, hate the game. In my neighborhood, there are four black people. Hundreds of houses, four black people. Who are these black people? Well, there’s me, Mary J. Blige, Jay-Z and Eddie Murphy. Only black people in the whole neighborhood. So let’s break it down: me, I’m a decent comedian, I’m a’ight. Mary J. Blige, one of the greatest R&B singers to ever walk the Earth. Jay-Z, one of the greatest rappers to ever live. Eddie Murphy, one of the funniest actors to ever, ever do it. Do you know what the white man who lives next door to me does for a living? He’s a fucking dentist. He ain’t the best dentist in the world, he ain’t going to the dental hall of fame, he don’t get plaques for getting rid of plaque. He’s just a yank-your-tooth-out dentist. See, the black man gotta fly to get to somethin’ the white man can walk to.”
Quote:
I guess I wonder why you - a white dude living in the Pacific Northwest - keep entertaining all these excuses for black people? Why is that? Was there a moment in your life that led you to advance this "theory" of yours? Was it college? Someone you knew personally? I'm genuinely interested in why you believe what you believe.
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results. Likewise, if two groups put in roughly equal effort, they should get roughly equal results, statistically speaking within margin of error within normal distribution etc. Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Yes, "Black people would have been worse off had they been left in Africa rather than being stolen as slaves" is a counterfactual, because it goes against the facts as they happened.

So, you call this counterfactual. What evidence do you have to support the idea that black people in America today would be better off had their ancestors been left in Africa. Because places like Gambia, the Congo, Ghana, etc are booming successes? That's an interesting argument you have there. I've heard people on the left use "guilt" before to say we Americans are just incredibly lucky we were, in fact, born in America. They're right about that, I freely admit. But, you're saying, "well, black people today aren't better off because their ancestors came here". How's that? Care to explain?
As I think I said, you shouldn't compare Gambia/Congo/Ghana/etc as they are today, you should compare them as they would have been with 4 million people not stolen to go serve Americans, which probably would have improved matters slightly, although European meddling would still fuck them over in a century or two. Now, serious talk, if you use that to prove that a black kid born today is better off because we saved his grand-father from European colonialism by stealing his great-grand-father to work the cotton fields, I will add you to my killfile.

Chris rocks comment sums up your whole argument. He is comparing the most misadjusted work to income ratio jobs out there, to a dentist. When the real question should be gee why isn't there a black dentist in this neighborhood. The jobs chris rock is describing is having a talent and a lot of luck. Not hard work and schooling. If you want to have an honest argument about this then compare apples to apples, and ask your self why isn't their a black dentist in that neighborhood. I'm guessing you won't because you will get a whole lot of answers you won't like.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:16 AM   #35
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Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65dart

Chris rocks comment sums up your whole argument. He is comparing the most misadjusted work to income ratio jobs out there, to a dentist. When the real question should be gee why isn't there a black dentist in this neighborhood. The jobs chris rock is describing is having a talent and a lot of luck. Not hard work and schooling. If you want to have an honest argument about this then compare apples to apples, and ask your self why isn't their a black dentist in that neighborhood. I'm guessing you won't because you will get a whole lot of answers you won't like.
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Old 06-21-2017, 01:52 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
AND YET, black people are still seen as a criminal underrace
Why is that? Because they are merely black and different looking? Or because they, in fact, do account for a disproportional amount of crime in the USA. It is a fact, sadly. It is what it is. There are reasons for it. I'm sure we disagree as to those reasons. But, if they sharply reduced their crime rate, I'm sure people would not view them as criminals.
The thing is, disproportionality is irrelevant and misleading. It'd be true if black people were responsible for 2 murders a year to the 1 committed by white people. Putting your argument another way, you're calling black people a criminal race because only 99.5% of them are law-abiding citizens, compared to 99.9% of white people. This seems a trifle unfair.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results.
But, as we know - life isn't fair. Regardless of color, you can take two people would put in the same effort and one might not have good luck. One might be saddled with bad health or just not be in the right place at the right time. It is just the way things are... It isn't limited to black people. I know plenty of white people who put in effort, who do the right things - one will luck into a good job and the other one seems to get stuck at a low paying job. That's life.
Yeah, but random misfortune should hit everybody equally, and not have any significant effect on the average for each group, which is the part I actually cared about and which you removed as inconvenient.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.
^See the crime rate. That explains a LOT more than you ever want to admit. You know what - why don't you explain why the crime rates for black people is so much higher? Why is that?
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65dart

Chris rocks comment sums up your whole argument. He is comparing the most misadjusted work to income ratio jobs out there, to a dentist. When the real question should be gee why isn't there a black dentist in this neighborhood. The jobs chris rock is describing is having a talent and a lot of luck. Not hard work and schooling. If you want to have an honest argument about this then compare apples to apples, and ask your self why isn't their a black dentist in that neighborhood. I'm guessing you won't because you will get a whole lot of answers you won't like.
Unfortunately for you, we have asked that question, and the answer is that a black dentist doesn't make enough to live in that neighborhood.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Exactly

Unfortunately for you, we have asked that question, and the answer is that a black dentist doesn't make enough to live in that neighborhood.

Your first story has a picture of a car in front of a house, that pretty much sums up the whole thing. That car had what at least 20k in rims and tires. And at least a 5k paint job. On a car worth 2k on its best day. Then everyone goes I just can't understand why black people can't move up out of the poor neighborhood. Ding ding ding your article provided the picture of why.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:35 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
The thing is, disproportionality is irrelevant and misleading. It'd be true if black people were responsible for 2 murders a year to the 1 committed by white people. Putting your argument another way, you're calling black people a criminal race because only 99.5% of them are law-abiding citizens, compared to 99.9% of white people. This seems a trifle unfair.

No, it is not misleading. And, it is not irrelevant. That black people are responsible for disproportionate amount of crime is the central issue as to why they don't enjoy the success as any other race. You trying to spin the figures doesn't solve anything - as if to say, "see, we're quibbling over a .4% difference!" I was going to say, LOL, nice try. But, this is too important of a point to simply laugh off.

Black people make up about 13% of the population, yet in virtually every category, they outpace other races in crimes committed according to the FBI's UCR (for 2012). It is not like I'm enlightening you on this - you know this. But for everyone else, lets pull just a few stats out of the table the FBI provides:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBI UCR 2012
Murder - whites account for 48.2% and blacks account for 49.4%. American Indian 1.2% and Asians 1.2%. At least according to 2012 data, black people account for more murders committed than any other race despite only being about 13% of the population. This should be very troubling.

Robbery - whites account for 43.4% and blacks account for 54.9%.

DUI - some good news for black people. They only account for 12.1% of DUIs. White people apparently love to drink and drive at 84.6%


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Yeah, but random misfortune should hit everybody equally, and not have any significant effect on the average for each group, which is the part I actually cared about and which you removed as inconvenient.

^See above. "Random misfortune" in the form of an extremely high crime rate for black people plays into their lot in life. When your race accounts for 28% of all crime (or at least arrests) yet you only account for 13% of the population... Well, of course it isn't going to affect all races equally. Come on, man. A black person, just based on the sheer numbers is much more likely to either have been in or know a family member in the criminal justice system. That would seem to have a large effect on their collective ability to shake off life's curveballs, wouldn't it? Your point would have been valid if the crime rate wasn't so out of whack. In other words, ceteris parabus doesn't really apply in this case, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.

We can't just excuse away the black crime rate as due to poverty in perpetuity. Or, I guess we can - but nothing will ever change. Other groups come here with nothing, thus, are in poverty. Yet, they don't sink into a life of crime. Why is that? Why do Asians do well despite poverty? How is it that Asian immigrants are more adept at climbing out of poverty and avoiding crime? Why does this "life of crime and poverty" phenomenon seem to affect the black family more than other races?

The study you provide has limitations and really seems to suggest that having an African sounding name is what limits the candidate - I'd like to see the study include some crazy white names like "Apple" or "Reality Winner", you know, just to see how they'd be treated.

My first thought was actually the salary range for these jobs: $31,000-38,000. That is awful low for any Ivy League graduate especially one majoring in Business (as the study says they used Business and Psychology majors). I would expect a person with a Bachelors from Harvard to be starting out much higher than $31-38k. Why would someone with a business degree from Harvard be applying for a job making way less than the average starting salary for Harvard business grad?

So, perhaps a study flaw was that these fake candidates were viewed as overqualified. That's a real thing, too. I interviewed people last week and this week and many are way overqualified. You think, "well, that's a good thing for you". No, its really not. Because most stay for a short period of time until they find something better. But, that's another topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Why is that? Because they are merely black and different looking? Or because they, in fact, do account for a disproportional amount of crime in the USA. It is a fact, sadly. It is what it is. There are reasons for it. I'm sure we disagree as to those reasons. But, if they sharply reduced their crime rate, I'm sure people would not view them as criminals.
The thing is, disproportionality is irrelevant and misleading. It'd be true if black people were responsible for 2 murders a year to the 1 committed by white people. Putting your argument another way, you're calling black people a criminal race because only 99.5% of them are law-abiding citizens, compared to 99.9% of white people. This seems a trifle unfair.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthbob88
Honestly not sure, and I actually think it post-dates college. Part of it, though, is that in a meritocracy, such as we believe this country to be, if two people put in equal effort from an equal starting point they should achieve equal results.
But, as we know - life isn't fair. Regardless of color, you can take two people would put in the same effort and one might not have good luck. One might be saddled with bad health or just not be in the right place at the right time. It is just the way things are... It isn't limited to black people. I know plenty of white people who put in effort, who do the right things - one will luck into a good job and the other one seems to get stuck at a low paying job. That's life.
Yeah, but random misfortune should hit everybody equally, and not have any significant effect on the average for each group, which is the part I actually cared about and which you removed as inconvenient.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Black people and white people have not achieved the same results. So, either they aren't putting in the same effort as white people, which I refuse to believe because it goes against my egalitarian principles and personal experience, or they aren't starting from the same location as white people, and face a disadvantage which must be rectified. The rest follows from there.
^See the crime rate. That explains a LOT more than you ever want to admit. You know what - why don't you explain why the crime rates for black people is so much higher? Why is that?
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
No, it is not misleading. And, it is not irrelevant. That black people are responsible for disproportionate amount of crime is the central issue as to why they don't enjoy the success as any other race. You trying to spin the figures doesn't solve anything - as if to say, "see, we're quibbling over a .4% difference!" I was going to say, LOL, nice try. But, this is too important of a point to simply laugh off.

Black people make up about 13% of the population, yet in virtually every category, they outpace other races in crimes committed according to the FBI's UCR (for 2012). It is not like I'm enlightening you on this - you know this. But for everyone else, lets pull just a few stats out of the table the FBI provides:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBI UCR 2012
Murder - whites account for 48.2% and blacks account for 49.4%. American Indian 1.2% and Asians 1.2%. At least according to 2012 data, black people account for more murders committed than any other race despite only being about 13% of the population. This should be very troubling.

Robbery - whites account for 43.4% and blacks account for 54.9%.

DUI - some good news for black people. They only account for 12.1% of DUIs. White people apparently love to drink and drive at 84.6%
Yes, but that still says not a Goddamn thing about the actual rate of criminality among black people, saving that it's somewhat higher. Most criminals being black people does not mean most black people are criminals. Most black people are in fact honest citizens, same as most white people. So why is it that criminals are seen as representative of the black community, and not those honest citizens that make up the majority?
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
I have explained the black crime rate. It's due to poverty and the fact that employers are reluctant to hire black people, even if they did graduate from Harvard. You can't possibly blame that on black criminality.
We can't just excuse away the black crime rate as due to poverty in perpetuity. Or, I guess we can - but nothing will ever change. Other groups come here with nothing, thus, are in poverty. Yet, they don't sink into a life of crime. Why is that? Why do Asians do well despite poverty? How is it that Asian immigrants are more adept at climbing out of poverty and avoiding crime? Why does this "life of crime and poverty" phenomenon seem to affect the black family more than other races?
The big thing, IMO, is that getting out of poverty requires getting a job, and as we have seen, most employers don't like hiring black people. Alternatively, it requires getting enough welfare to support yourself without turning to crime, but I know how incredibly dubious you are about giving aid to black people.
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The study you provide has limitations and really seems to suggest that having an African sounding name is what limits the candidate - I'd like to see the study include some crazy white names like "Apple" or "Reality Winner", you know, just to see how they'd be treated.
At the same time, though, I'd think "Harvard grad with good major" would weigh rather more heavily on a hiring manager's mind than "Kid's named Jamal", and am slightly concerned that you reverse those priorities.

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My first thought was actually the salary range for these jobs: $31,000-38,000. That is awful low for any Ivy League graduate especially one majoring in Business (as the study says they used Business and Psychology majors). I would expect a person with a Bachelors from Harvard to be starting out much higher than $31-38k. Why would someone with a business degree from Harvard be applying for a job making way less than the average starting salary for Harvard business grad?
Presumably they stuck to low-salary jobs so they could keep the state schools in the mix, and measure how much more likely a black Duke grad was to get hired for a given opening than a white boy from a state school
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So, perhaps a study flaw was that these fake candidates were viewed as overqualified. That's a real thing, too. I interviewed people last week and this week and many are way overqualified. You think, "well, that's a good thing for you". No, its really not. Because most stay for a short period of time until they find something better. But, that's another topic...
That should have affected the black and white applicants equally, though.
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Facts or GTFO. Anecdotal arguments will be met with mockery.
Food stamps stimulate the economy, tax cuts don't, tax rates are at a historic low, welfare queens are either non-existent or embarrassingly near.
My posting is a PC-Optional zone. I reserve the right to refrain from using PC euphemisms, and to speak my opinion, fucknut.
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