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Old 02-13-2018, 01:25 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
What's been proven true?

That's the way it works, you know. You have to prove something true. Otherwise, people could say, "Hey, Shuguy is a bank robber". And, it'd be up to you to prove you aren't a bank robber.

Instead, it would be up to the accuser to prove you did it.

So, what has been proven true in that dossier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShuGuy

What's been proven false about the Steele Dossier?

Lol, that's not how it works. You don't get to say "it's been proven false" when none of it has been publicly confirmed either way. I know it helps you to carry water for Trump to claim otherwise, but no, you do not get to claim something was "proven false" just because you don't like its contents.

Given that the FBI was in contact with Steele and had already opened the investigation before that contact, I'd lean towards its general contents being true. But I forgot, RWNJs hate the FBI now.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:10 PM   #102
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You are entitled to your own opinion, of course. But, not your own facts - as the saying goes.

The presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of our judicial system. I am not even sure what crime is being investigated anymore. We are told Russian collusion. But, then you sort of hear obstruction of justice (that Trump fired Comey) - except, Trump has the right to fire Comey. So, who knows what crime is really being investigated.

Like I said, if Carter Page is a Russian spy - why is still a free man? There are lots of questions in this "memo-gate". I'm not necessarily carrying water for the Trump campaign. I am troubled by the ease of which the FBI can seem to get an intrusive FISA warrant on a US person.

And, if this dossier was one of the main reasons why they got the warrant then it should be troubling to everyone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ShuGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
What's been proven true?

That's the way it works, you know. You have to prove something true. Otherwise, people could say, "Hey, Shuguy is a bank robber". And, it'd be up to you to prove you aren't a bank robber.

Instead, it would be up to the accuser to prove you did it.

So, what has been proven true in that dossier?


Lol, that's not how it works. You don't get to say "it's been proven false" when none of it has been publicly confirmed either way. I know it helps you to carry water for Trump to claim otherwise, but no, you do not get to claim something was "proven false" just because you don't like its contents.

Given that the FBI was in contact with Steele and had already opened the investigation before that contact, I'd lean towards its general contents being true. But I forgot, RWNJs hate the FBI now.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:57 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
The top Senate Democrat on the Intelligence Committee (Sen. Warner) actually said, " In my mind, one of the most amazing things is whether Mr. Trump or his campaign colluded or not, the fact that there is this explosive dossier that's been in the public realm for a year-plus and whether enormous scrutiny from the press or for that matter, work of the American government, that so little of that dossier has either been fully proven or conversely, disproven."
Your original assertion was that the dossier has been "mostly proven false" and that's what I was taking issue with. Now you admit that little has been proven or disproven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Several other aspects have not been verified. I hate to quote Newsweek (given they are a shitty news organization) but here goes: http://www.newsweek.com/trump-russia...we-know-777116

Even the one Newsweek marked verified is not really verified because they say Carter Page met with a Russian named Igor Sechin who heads Rosneft. Page did not meet with Sechin, never met Sechin. In the only interview I've seen Page give he adamantly points out he never met Sechin and never spoke with him. Furthermore, if Carter Page was so dirty, why is he not been charged or arrested? As you state, Manafort and the other guy have been charged. Why hasn't Carter?
I count three verified claims from the Newsweek article, not one. I don't see any as disproven.

As to Page - we have yet to see what will happen to him. Maybe he's cooperating with Mueller, we don't know do we? The fat lady has yet to sing. I've seen him interviewed several times and he comes off as a bit of an amiable doofus.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:57 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
I'm not sure why you bother with attacking the source. It is quoting Trey Gowdy. Are you saying he didn't say that days before the Dem memo was attempted to be released? Is the story factually wrong? No. And, do you really think Trump would be able to hide this memo? You don't think someone would leak it? Its time for me to say "oh c'mon!"
The Examiner is known to be a right wing rag, that's why it deserves to be attacked. Much like Faux News it's not that they got the quote wrong, it's that they don't report both sides. And Trey Gowdy still made those comments before even seeing the memo.



Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
You're centered in on Trump, Jr. meeting with a Russian attorney to "get dirt" on Hillary. LOL, yet this whole dossier was paid for by Hillary and the DNC. You call that oppo research but call what Trump, Jr et al did, what? Treason? Or proof of collusion?
Oppo research is one thing but there are laws against seeking or accepting campaign help from foreigners. It's the foreign angle that's illegal.



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Originally Posted by infantrystud
Yet in the last few days/weeks we've seen evidence that Adam Schiff got punked attempting to get incriminating information on Donald Trump from two Ukrainian comedians.
Here's a perfect example of the spin the right wingers put on something. I googled "schiff punked" and 99% of the hits were far right wing sites. At least "theblacksphere" had the integrity to say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblacksphere
A spokesperson for Schiff confirmed he was on the call but claimed the congressman had suspicions that the caller might not be Parubiy and reported it to law enforcement last April.

‘Both before and after the call, we were aware that it was likely bogus and had already alerted appropriate law enforcement personnel, as well as after the call,’ the spokesperson said.
And AARP had more detail than just the smear, pointing out the portion where Schiff says
Quote:
Originally Posted by AARP
Schiff asks: "And the materials you can provide to the committee and to the FBI, would they corroborate this allegation? ... So you have recordings... where they're discussing the compromising material?"

"Obviously we would welcome the chance to get copies of those recordings," Schiff tells them. "So we will try to work with the FBI to try to figure out how we can take copies of those... I'll be in touch with the FBI about this, and we'll make arrangements with your staff. I think it would be best to provide these materials to both our committee and the FBI. We'll make arrangements between my staff and yours on how to facilitate that."
Is getting something for the committee and the FBI so wrong?
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:00 AM   #105
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Sorry to break this response into two parts, S&F thought it was a bot when I tried to post it all together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
You have Senator Warner trying to contact Steele (who allegedly wrote the dossier) through a lobbyist for a Russian oligarch and was intent on making direct contact so there would be "no paper trail".
Another case of the right wing media distorting a story to protect Trump. Is there something wrong with trying to get Steele to testify? Apparently there is if you want to hide things. Rubio, also on the intel committee, said the committee has known about this for months. It was not hidden as implied by "no paper trail".


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Finally, who says the dossier is flimsy? I've already cited Warner himself saying that very little has been proven in it. Director Comey also said the dossier was salacious and unverified. Newsweek, as bad as they are conceded most has not been proven.

And, this was allegedly the key piece of evidence used to get a FISA warrant on Carter Page? Ok, so why is Carter Page not been charged with anything?
Actually, you said the dossier was flimsy, or at least implied it by saying the FBI used flimsy evidence to get the warrant and that the evidence was bought and paid for by the Clinton campaign (post 94). Warner having said little was proven doesn't make it wrong, Comey said PARTS of it were salacious and unverified, what about other parts. And your assertion that it was the key piece of evidence used to get the warrants is certainly a right wing talking point. The Democratic response memo would probably have put the lie to that if Trump wasn't trying to hide it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:56 PM   #106
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The NY Times and Washpo are known to be left wing rags. I mean, at the end of the day, what's your real complaint about the story? That the Examiner got it wrong? Not really. That Gowdy stated it? Probably.

Oppo research is ok unless it involves foreigners is your assertion? Ok. Is Christopher Steele a US citizen? I don't think he is. So, using your standard, the DNC and Hillary Clinton violated the law, right?

You can listen to the Schiff punk'd episode for yourself. He followed it up with emails. So, as much as he'd like everyone to believe "hey, I knew all along they were punking me..." Sure... Sure he did. The ease at which two Ukrainian pranksters could get a sitting US politician on the phone was both stunning and funny. He couldn't wait to get that "krompomat" material on Trump fast enough. Which you support. But, if someone else does it, then you view it as criminal?

That dossier is flimsy. This is the fascinating part where people see what they want to see. You hate Trump so you give a wide berth on "well, we don't know if it is not true or not". I am not a blind Trump supporter - i didnt even vote for him... But, I see problems with using this dossier to get FISA warrants on people. Big problems. And, I'd view it the same way if the tables were turned.

The Dem memo will come out, eventually. I do believe they wrote it a certain way knowing it wouldn't immediately come out. This whole thing doesn't bode well for them - and the previous administration. Any delay is good for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billxl883
Sorry to break this response into two parts, S&F thought it was a bot when I tried to post it all together.


Another case of the right wing media distorting a story to protect Trump. Is there something wrong with trying to get Steele to testify? Apparently there is if you want to hide things. Rubio, also on the intel committee, said the committee has known about this for months. It was not hidden as implied by "no paper trail".


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Finally, who says the dossier is flimsy? I've already cited Warner himself saying that very little has been proven in it. Director Comey also said the dossier was salacious and unverified. Newsweek, as bad as they are conceded most has not been proven.

And, this was allegedly the key piece of evidence used to get a FISA warrant on Carter Page? Ok, so why is Carter Page not been charged with anything?
Actually, you said the dossier was flimsy, or at least implied it by saying the FBI used flimsy evidence to get the warrant and that the evidence was bought and paid for by the Clinton campaign (post 94). Warner having said little was proven doesn't make it wrong, Comey said PARTS of it were salacious and unverified, what about other parts. And your assertion that it was the key piece of evidence used to get the warrants is certainly a right wing talking point. The Democratic response memo would probably have put the lie to that if Trump wasn't trying to hide it.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:02 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
The NY Times and Washpo are known to be left wing rags. I mean, at the end of the day, what's your real complaint about the story? That the Examiner got it wrong? Not really. That Gowdy stated it? Probably.
The complaint is that Gowdy made the assertion with nothing to base it on other than partisan hackery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Oppo research is ok unless it involves foreigners is your assertion? Ok. Is Christopher Steele a US citizen? I don't think he is. So, using your standard, the DNC and Hillary Clinton violated the law, right?
Fusion GPS is a US company, that's who the Clinton campaign hired. By your logic, if Trump hired an ad agency to do campaign ads and the ad was produced by someone with a green card, he would be guilty too. That's stretching things too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
You can listen to the Schiff punk'd episode for yourself. He followed it up with emails. So, as much as he'd like everyone to believe "hey, I knew all along they were punking me..." Sure... Sure he did. The ease at which two Ukrainian pranksters could get a sitting US politician on the phone was both stunning and funny. He couldn't wait to get that "krompomat" material on Trump fast enough. Which you support. But, if someone else does it, then you view it as criminal?
False equivalence. Schiff was getting material for a congressional investigation, not a campaign. Campaign laws against foreign interference don't apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
That dossier is flimsy. This is the fascinating part where people see what they want to see. You hate Trump so you give a wide berth on "well, we don't know if it is not true or not". I am not a blind Trump supporter - i didnt even vote for him... But, I see problems with using this dossier to get FISA warrants on people. Big problems. And, I'd view it the same way if the tables were turned.
You say the dossier is flimsy, so what? The dossier probably gave Mueller, and should have given congressional investigators, some clues about where to look. The fact that the right wants to paint it as flimsy in order to avoid checking what's in it tells us that the right really does not want to investigate. Afraid of what they'll find?

And who says the dossier was was anything other than a very minor factor in the FISA warrants? Page was under investigation long before the dossier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
The Dem memo will come out, eventually. I do believe they wrote it a certain way knowing it wouldn't immediately come out. This whole thing doesn't bode well for them - and the previous administration. Any delay is good for them.
I wish we could see the original Democratic memo. I think it would expose the Republican memo for the whitewash it attempted to be.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:15 AM   #108
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Maybe Gowdy made it under "partisan hackery" - but maybe he's right about it. You don't know. I don't know.

But we do know we were told the GOP memo would damage national security. And, we both agree it should not have even been classified at all - much less damage national security. Who was saying it would damage national security? Dems and the FBI/DOJ. I understand the FBI and DOJ - they want to protect a .989 batting average on FISAs. The Dems?

Is Steele a US citizen or not? Did he provide the information to Fusion GPS?

Using your logic, that wacky Russian lawyer that got a meeting with the Trump team... If she worked for a US firm, it'd be all good? You'd be ok with it?

The Schiff thing is not false equivalence. You just don't like it because it exposes your "outrage".

I haven't heard anything else about the Dem memo. Why is that? Why haven't the Dems rewritten it to satisfy the FBI/DOJ and Trump? Do you wonder why that is?

You HOPE the Dem memo "exposes" the GOP memo. But, hope's not a method...

Quote:
Originally Posted by billxl883
The complaint is that Gowdy made the assertion with nothing to base it on other than partisan hackery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
Oppo research is ok unless it involves foreigners is your assertion? Ok. Is Christopher Steele a US citizen? I don't think he is. So, using your standard, the DNC and Hillary Clinton violated the law, right?
Fusion GPS is a US company, that's who the Clinton campaign hired. By your logic, if Trump hired an ad agency to do campaign ads and the ad was produced by someone with a green card, he would be guilty too. That's stretching things too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
You can listen to the Schiff punk'd episode for yourself. He followed it up with emails. So, as much as he'd like everyone to believe "hey, I knew all along they were punking me..." Sure... Sure he did. The ease at which two Ukrainian pranksters could get a sitting US politician on the phone was both stunning and funny. He couldn't wait to get that "krompomat" material on Trump fast enough. Which you support. But, if someone else does it, then you view it as criminal?
False equivalence. Schiff was getting material for a congressional investigation, not a campaign. Campaign laws against foreign interference don't apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
That dossier is flimsy. This is the fascinating part where people see what they want to see. You hate Trump so you give a wide berth on "well, we don't know if it is not true or not". I am not a blind Trump supporter - i didnt even vote for him... But, I see problems with using this dossier to get FISA warrants on people. Big problems. And, I'd view it the same way if the tables were turned.
You say the dossier is flimsy, so what? The dossier probably gave Mueller, and should have given congressional investigators, some clues about where to look. The fact that the right wants to paint it as flimsy in order to avoid checking what's in it tells us that the right really does not want to investigate. Afraid of what they'll find?

And who says the dossier was was anything other than a very minor factor in the FISA warrants? Page was under investigation long before the dossier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
The Dem memo will come out, eventually. I do believe they wrote it a certain way knowing it wouldn't immediately come out. This whole thing doesn't bode well for them - and the previous administration. Any delay is good for them.
I wish we could see the original Democratic memo. I think it would expose the Republican memo for the whitewash it attempted to be.
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