Hope and Change BS

[infantrystud]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HGnsIsrUbYY

Bob's a riot. So we want to penalize Romney for making money? Only in America, I guess

So you totally discount the international student angle in your hypotheses on why Obama has not released his college records? Interesting. I think that's very likely the case. It makes sense and I wouldn't blame him for using every thing at his disposal to get into top tier universities. Its the equivalent of winning the lottery. You get degrees from Ivy League schools and you're set for life. And, people rarely fail out of those schools. I read something about grade overinflation in the Ivy League.

Anyway, I think they should both release everything. IMO, Romney made a shit pot of money and is afraid of looking even more elite than he is financially.

Originally Posted by ShuGuy

I'd have to respectfully disagree on that one.

To me, there are 2 possible reasons for Obama's transcripts:

1) He got bad grades. Which is probably doubtful, but at the end of the day, big effin' deal. It was too long ago to matter.
2) He took some random elective about socialism, communism, or any other -ism that conservative pundits foam at the mouth to try to connect him to. Considering most people take electives like that because the professor's easy, there's a cute girl in that class they're trying to impress, or badminton 101 was full, I'm not really seeing any huge commitment to any ideal there. So I don't blame the guy for just avoiding that brushfire altogether.

Whereas Obama's not releasing things from several decades ago, Romney's not releasing things from 2 years ago. I'd say recency is a major reason why one's more important than the other.

I mean, here are some of the possible reasons why Romney's not releasing his tax records:

1) He did something really illegal. Aside from getting caught in a lie or two (aka, "retroactive retirement"), I doubt that he did something major.
2) He participated in the 2009 IRS amnesty for doing something really boneheaded/some illegal. This one seems less likely, because this sort of thing came up during his gubernatorial run... with the irony being that he was pressuring Ted Kennedy to release more.
3) He's paid considerably less in taxes than he should have through legal loopholes. This is the one I'd put my money on.

It's a pretty grey ethical area when mega-millionaires exploit the system to not pay their fair share, but when you're running for president, it's a PR catastrophe.

Or, secret option #4: He's waiting to see if anyone else but that doofus Harry Reid starts saying that they can prove Romney didn't pay taxes, and then he releases everything and gives them their own PR disaster. I'd call this the "birth certificate" strategy, but Romney would need to kill Osama Bin Laden too to pull it off correctly.

[HoratioBrock]

Obama's college records are irrelevant. He has released as much as any other President and he has already been not only vetted, but elected. President Bush didn't release his transcripts either, I don't remember an uproar. They were leaked later but that was not President Bush's intent. There is no story here.

The only reason that I can see that the Romney tax records are relevant is because Senator McCain has seen 23 years of them and has not called out Senator Reid for being a liar. I guess Senator Reid either isn't a liar or the McCain people are waiting for a convention surprise.

I personally don't care what Romney paid, I'm sure it was entirely legal.

[HoratioBrock]

Originally Posted by sleepneat

Even CNN called the "Death Ad" bullshit..when Wolf calls Bullshit on a Democratic issue or statement...you know it's fucked up.

WTF were you doing in bar with Fox News on? I woulda ran the other way

I think the college transcripts are a bigger damage issue than the tax returns, because Barry has spent 1 million dollars to keep them private and sealed.

What's he so worried about coming out?

The add is bullshit, no question about that.

[infantrystud]

Harry Reid hasn't even released his own tax records. Lets put it this way. If that were Trent Lott saying things about Obama, Lott would be called a racist. But Harry Reid basically says Romney hasn't paid taxes in years and he "has a source". Well, where are the records? Who is the source?

Obama wants this to be about Romney being an uber rich guy being out of touch. Obama can't really run on his record. He was president when Osama was killed. That's it. Hell, Bob says it better than I do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=h6K8bta3doc

So, yeah, Romney should release them. And Obama should release his college records. Neither should have anything to hide. BTW, just because Obama wasn't vetted the first time doesn't mean he is vetted now.

Originally Posted by HoratioBrock

Obama's college records are irrelevant. He has released as much as any other President and he has already been not only vetted, but elected. President Bush didn't release his transcripts either, I don't remember an uproar. They were leaked later but that was not President Bush's intent. There is no story here.

The only reason that I can see that the Romney tax records are relevant is because Senator McCain has seen 23 years of them and has not called out Senator Reid for being a liar. I guess Senator Reid either isn't a liar or the McCain people are waiting for a convention surprise.

I personally don't care what Romney paid, I'm sure it was entirely legal.

[infantrystud]

I agree that the college records are merely a side show. Here's some real issues that should cause people some real concern (sadly, it won't change any minds here): http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...7bb31849_story

First of all, I think we can all agree that this was a bad investment. From there, I'm sure we'll find plenty to disagree about. But, Obama can't say he didn't know. He was briefed on this and it was a miserable failure.

E-mails about clean-energy loans provide new details on White House involvement
President Obama’s staff arranged for him to be personally briefed last summer on a loan program to help clean-energy companies, two months before the program was thrust into headlines by the collapse of its flagship, the solar company Solyndra, records show.

About the same time, then-White House Chief of Staff William Daley resolved a dispute among administration officials over another project in the program, clearing the way for a $1.4 billion loan, according to documents and sources familiar with the situation.

The documents, a series of e-mails among Energy Department staff members involved in managing the program, provide new details about the level of White House involvement in the controversial initiative. White House officials have said in the past that final decisions about which companies would receive the loan guarantees were made by career staff members at the Energy Department, not political appointees.

Administration officials said Wednesday that the e-mails show that the White House involvement was appropriate and that there was no pressure on agency officials.

That loan program, a signature piece of the Obama administration’s effort to stimulate the economy, has become a major issue in this year’s presidential campaign. Republicans have charged that the program wasted critical stimulus money meant to create jobs, spending it instead on ill-advised projects that benefited Democratic fundraisers.

The documents, provided to The Washington Post by Republican investigators for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, show that White House aides asked Energy Secretary Steven Chu to deliver a June 27, 2011, presentation to the president on the status of the loan program. The interest in a presidential briefing came as other senior administration figures were challenging parts of the program and debating whether the Energy Department was cutting deals that gave “unjust enrichment” to private companies.

An Energy staffer explained that the president “wants to know its status” so he could be prepared when the loan program came up “at official events and political events where he interacts with [the] business community and Congressional members.” The e-mail from the department’s chief of staff, Brandon Hurlbut, went on to say that many people attending such gatherings “have some affiliation or interest in the numerous applications received that involve substantial funds.”

The documents do not indicate whether the presidential briefing took place as scheduled and, if so, whether Obama offered guidance on the program’s future.

‘A right to know’

On Wednesday, Rep. Darrell Issa (Calif.) and other Republican members of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee wrote to Obama requesting a “full and complete” explanation of his involvement in the issue and seeking additional internal documents, including a list of all private individuals with whom the president met to discuss loan projects.

“The American people have a right to know the level of involvement you and other senior White House officials had in the loan guarantee program,” the committee members wrote. “Your interactions with business leaders at political events affected decisions to give billions of taxpayer dollars in loan guarantees to green energy companies.”

[tequilasundae]

solyndra??? some youtube wackadoo? this is pnly part of the reason the right is losing credibility. The amount of money that went into Solyndra is a drop in the overall bucket, but since it was a failure for Obama it's bad for everyone?? It was a Fox News scandal until other media picked it up.
There is no conspiracy going on with Barack's grades..drop it already. It makes you look stupid harping about it.

[infantrystud]

You're still in school, right? I hope you are able to learn more before you graduate. $1 billion is a "drop in the bucket"? Pretty soon those drops add up, friend.

But, keep drinking the Obama Kool-Aid. I bet its yummy.

Originally Posted by tequilasundae

solyndra??? some youtube wackadoo? this is pnly part of the reason the right is losing credibility. The amount of money that went into Solyndra is a drop in the overall bucket, but since it was a failure for Obama it's bad for everyone?? It was a Fox News scandal until other media picked it up.
There is no conspiracy going on with Barack's grades..drop it already. It makes you look stupid harping about it.

[sleepneat]

Originally Posted by tequilasundae

solyndra??? some youtube wackadoo? this is pnly part of the reason the right is losing credibility. The amount of money that went into Solyndra is a drop in the overall bucket, but since it was a failure for Obama it's bad for everyone?? It was a Fox News scandal until other media picked it up.
There is no conspiracy going on with Barack's grades..drop it already. It makes you look stupid harping about it.

Really...

About as stupid as you guys crying about tax returns. Your President is supposed to be the smartest man on the planet, and he can't release proof?

You guys talk about Obama's achievements in being a "Constitutional" scholar, and we can't see how he actually did in those supposed classes?

You guys cry about Bush's college silver spoon crap, but we can't see how Barry paid for his golden education?

You guys said how stupid Bush was compared to Kerry until the proof was put out there.

Who gives a shit who put the Solyndra out there, $560 Million dollars given to a company that went bankrupt just a short time later, doesn't that raise some sort of red flag for you? Or are you so partisan, you'll take it in the ass while smiling and then thank him?

Even responding to your posts, TS, is getting to be silly. You're so blindly partisan, it's not even funny....and I find myself feeling sorry for you.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by sleepneat

Your President is supposed to be the smartest man on the planet, and he can't release proof?
You guys talk about Obama's achievements in being a "Constitutional" scholar, and we can't see how he actually did in those supposed classes?
You guys cry about Bush's college silver spoon crap, but we can't see how Barry paid for his golden education?

None of which is actually of any importance. This is the birth-certificate fiasco all over again, with different idiots. (Truth be told, though, it could be the same idiots.)

Obama was allowed to run for office because someone vetted him in advance: he showed sufficient proof that he was American-born. Then the fools wanted to see his birth certificate. Of course, he was reluctant, for two major reasons: 1) the fact that he was elected President is proof he was born here; and 2) no matter what you say to idiots, they will always remain idiots. Proof of this is that, even though his birth certificate was shown to the public twice, people are still asking to see the "real" one.

Obama went to college and graduated. He has a diploma. This is proof enough that his grades were at least sufficient to graduate. He's reluctant to show his grades because only idiots are asking for them.


I am not at all concerned about whether or not Obama is a "true" American, or what grades he received in school. The answers to these questions do not matter, because nothing will change.

I am more interested in learning what these two smoke screens are covering up. Are the idiots involved really such idiots that they don't see what's going on?

This has been a long-standing rule in politics, perhaps for thousands of years: If you really want to hide something, hide something else.

[sleepneat]

Originally Posted by garison808

None of which is actually of any importance. This is the birth-certificate fiasco all over again, with different idiots. (Truth be told, though, it could be the same idiots.)

Obama was allowed to run for office because someone vetted him in advance: he showed sufficient proof that he was American-born. Then the fools wanted to see his birth certificate. Of course, he was reluctant, for two major reasons: 1) the fact that he was elected President is proof he was born here; and 2) no matter what you say to idiots, they will always remain idiots. Proof of this is that, even though his birth certificate was shown to the public twice, people are still asking to see the "real" one.

Obama went to college and graduated. He has a diploma. This is proof enough that his grades were at least sufficient to graduate. He's reluctant to show his grades because only idiots are asking for them.


I am not at all concerned about whether or not Obama is a "true" American, or what grades he received in school. The answers to these questions do not matter, because nothing will change.

I am more interested in learning what these two smoke screens are covering up. Are the idiots involved really such idiots that they don't see what's going on?

This has been a long-standing rule in politics, perhaps for thousands of years: If you really want to hide something, hide something else.

So I'm just an idiot because I care to question the King?

I never bought into the birth BS, but I am buying into the fact that he has something to hide in his school records....grades or not. Is it not my place to ask questions of someone who wants to represent me in the world?

Now, I'll excuse your bird lover response, seeing that you're almost as idiotic as I am in questioning what is being hidden, if it is of importance.

It's important enough for them to spend $1 million dollars to keep it hidden.

So please, just let me be my idiotic self to ask questions.

[tequilasundae]

So I'm just an idiot because I care to question the King?

I never bought into the birth BS, but I am buying into the fact that he has something to hide in his school records....grades or not. Is it not my place to ask questions of someone who wants to represent me in the world?

Now, I'll excuse your bird lover response, seeing that you're almost as idiotic as I am in questioning what is being hidden, if it is of importance.

It's important enough for them to spend $1 million dollars to keep it hidden.

So please, just let me be my idiotic self to ask questions.

I believe the answer to that is a resounding YES. I may be in school but I am older than you realize. Also, what could a college aged Barack Obama have done that was so bad that it would de-legitamize his whole presidency? Seriously? What are you looking for? ..

[ShuGuy]

Originally Posted by infantrystud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=HGnsIsrUbYY

Bob's a riot. So we want to penalize Romney for making money? Only in America, I guess

So you totally discount the international student angle in your hypotheses on why Obama has not released his college records? Interesting. I think that's very likely the case. It makes sense and I wouldn't blame him for using every thing at his disposal to get into top tier universities. Its the equivalent of winning the lottery. You get degrees from Ivy League schools and you're set for life. And, people rarely fail out of those schools. I read something about grade overinflation in the Ivy League.

Anyway, I think they should both release everything. IMO, Romney made a shit pot of money and is afraid of looking even more elite than he is financially.

No, I discounted it because that sort of thing doesn't show up in college records. Duh.

And it's not penalizing Romney for earning money. Didja not read what I said? Because I think you didn't read what I said. It's about the fact that he very likely paid even less than he should have through legal loopholes.

And tell ya what: to make it a complete case of false equivalence, why doesn't Obama release his transcripts for every college course he's taken in the past 10 years and Romney can release his tax records for the same time too?

[garison808]

Originally Posted by sleepneat

So I'm just an idiot because I care to question the King?

No, it's probably just habit.

Originally Posted by sleepneat

I am buying into the fact that he has something to hide in his school records....grades or not. Is it not my place to ask questions of someone who wants to represent me in the world?

You can ask whatever you want. The problem I see is that you don't know the right questions.

I have nothing to hide in my own academic history, but if you were to ask for my school records, I wouldn't give them to you. First, and most important, I don't have them. Second, it's none of your business. Third ... well, given time, I could probably come up with a hundred different reasons why you don't get to see my records, many of which I'm certain the President could also use.

But the best reason for neither myself nor the President showing you are school records is: It's just not important enough.

You can translate that to read: you aren't seeing the big picture.

Let's pretend for a moment that the President releases his academic records for you to see. What changes? Nothing. Suppose we find that he didn't do so well in school as he claims. Does that mean the last four years didn't happen? Does it make Bush's was end sooner? Does it create jobs? Does it balance the budget and reduce the deficit? Contrary to the apocalyptic notions cluttering your mind, the sun will rise tomorrow, and the world will go on just as it always has.

And that's why you're an idiot: because you're wasting time looking into something that has no meaning in the real world.

If you had any sense, you would look behind this mystery. If his grades good or bad have no effect on anything, then what is he hiding by hiding them? What the idiots do, because idiots are easily manipulated, is focus their attentions on things that seem controversial but are, in reality, of no importance whatsoever, while ignoring the big picture. Guiding the idiots in this manner allows the government to cover up a multitude of sins, because they know the idiots will be looking elsewhere.

[HoratioBrock]

Originally Posted by infantrystud

Harry Reid hasn't even released his own tax records. Lets put it this way. If that were Trent Lott saying things about Obama, Lott would be called a racist. But Harry Reid basically says Romney hasn't paid taxes in years and he "has a source". Well, where are the records? Who is the source?

Obama wants this to be about Romney being an uber rich guy being out of touch. Obama can't really run on his record. He was president when Osama was killed. That's it. Hell, Bob says it better than I do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=h6K8bta3doc

So, yeah, Romney should release them. And Obama should release his college records. Neither should have anything to hide. BTW, just because Obama wasn't vetted the first time doesn't mean he is vetted now.

I hear you, it is a fair point. Harry Reid though isn't running for President. That is a much more significant position than Senator for Nevada. If Nevada is fine with Reid doing that, great, my guess is most people disagree.

As far as the source goes, who cares? Fox and the Republicans went on a 3 year tangent that our POTUS wasn't born here. Some here even said that it was a totally legitimate volley to lob, went so far as asking for the President to show his long form birth certificate. Why? President Obama said he was born here, the Clinton and McCain camps along with the FEC agreed. It was a baseless accusation designed to fire up the right wing. How is that in any way different from what Harry Reid did?

The right called our President a foreign born man, then dared him to prove otherwise. Harry Reid said that Romney refused to pay taxes then dared him to prove otherwise. Pretty similar stuff if you ask me.

Whether or not the President can run on his record remains to be determined by the voters and has nothing to do with this. It is more of course than Osama was killed. (although that is pretty significant)

Your comparison if you want it to be apples to apples would be Governor Romney releasing his college records. He hasn't either. President Bush 43 didn't release his either, I didn't hear clamoring for them from the right.

The bottom line for me here is that the right wing was more than happy to level baseless accusations at the President but seems to cry foul when a baseless accusation (and yes I think Senator Reid's accusation was baseless) is leveled at their guy. The college record thing is a distraction.

[HoratioBrock]

Originally Posted by infantrystud

You're still in school, right? I hope you are able to learn more before you graduate. $1 billion is a "drop in the bucket"? Pretty soon those drops add up, friend.

But, keep drinking the Obama Kool-Aid. I bet its yummy.

Solyndra is a cherry picked company that is over used to try to make a point about President Obama's failures. The reality is that the Solyndra investment accounted for 1.3% of the DOE's entire loan portfolio. That leaves 98.7%. That accurately describes the amount that was invested. Is it a drop in the bucket? I guess that's up to you but it isn't a ridiculous number.

The Bush administration also tried to approve the Solyndra loan guarantee before President Obama took office. Everyone that wants to attack this as terrible goes to the fact that Argonaut Venture Capital, owned by George Kaiser invested in Solyndra. Therefore Obama paid back a favor. Those same people don't say that Madrone Capital Partners funded by the Walton family also were investors. They are hardly President Obama supporters.

The loan guarantee act that was used to fund Solyndra was put in place by the Bush administration. "The Energy Policy Act of 2005" was signed into law, this created the 1703 loan guarantee program. Solyndra applied for the loan in 2006, In 2007 the loan guarantee program is funded. Solyndra was one of 16 clean-tech companies deemed ready to move forward in the due diligence process. The Bush administration DOE moved toward a committment. In November 2008 Solyndra raised $144 million from private investors like Kaiser and Walmart, giving them a total private investment of $450,000,000.

In 2009 the Bush administration took the Solyndra loan guarantee before a credit review committee before President Obama was elected. I assume to show that they were pro green energy also. Again in 2009 that same credit committee approved the loan application. In September of 2009 Solyndra raised an additional $219,000,000 in private investment. This was enough to approve them for a loan guarantee of $535,000,000. This process took 3 years.

In the first 6 months of 2010 Solyndra raised another $175,000,000 from private investors. Remember these are the investors that regular schlubs like me are supposed to accept as the "job creators" The ones who understand the economy. I'm just a fireman after all.

In 2011 Solyndra became a victim of the economy like so many other companies, the DOE refused to restructure their loan even though private investors fronted another $75,000,000 to keep them running. September 2011 they failed and the right went bananas talking about this Obama failure.

It is much less of a story than the right would have you believe. Do the right talk much about the other 98.7% of the DOE guaranteed loans? Not so's I can tell.

Drop in the bucket? Not sure. Proof that President Obama failed? Absolutely not.

(sorry for the edits brother, just got back from Key Lime Cove, had a few margaritas and I made a buncha spelling errors )

[HoratioBrock]

Originally Posted by sleepneat

So I'm just an idiot because I care to question the King?

I never bought into the birth BS, but I am buying into the fact that he has something to hide in his school records....grades or not. Is it not my place to ask questions of someone who wants to represent me in the world?

Now, I'll excuse your bird lover response, seeing that you're almost as idiotic as I am in questioning what is being hidden, if it is of importance.

It's important enough for them to spend $1 million dollars to keep it hidden.

So please, just let me be my idiotic self to ask questions.

So if records aren't released you accept that as proof there is something to hide?

Obama and Romney both are hiding something in their failure to release transcripts? Romney is hiding something in his failure to release his tax returns?

Not sure where you are going with this.

[infantrystud]

If they are legal loopholes then they are legal. Duh... Not sure of your point. That's a far cry from not paying any taxes. He'd be an idiot for not taking advantage of tax breaks. I think its rich (pun intended) for liberals to complain someone isn't pay their fair share. How many of Obama's minions had tax issues? They sure want higher taxes on people... Why? 'cause a lot of them don't even pay what they are supposed to!

Originally Posted by ShuGuy

No, I discounted it because that sort of thing doesn't show up in college records. Duh.

And it's not penalizing Romney for earning money. Didja not read what I said? Because I think you didn't read what I said. It's about the fact that he very likely paid even less than he should have through legal loopholes.

And tell ya what: to make it a complete case of false equivalence, why doesn't Obama release his transcripts for every college course he's taken in the past 10 years and Romney can release his tax records for the same time too?

[samus1001]

The important thing about Romney's tax records is simply this:
Most people can do simple math. If the average person paid 30 cents on the dollar in taxes and he paid less but earns FAR more this will probably hurt his election chances a great deal more than Obama's college records. I cant think of any situation the release of Obama's college records could hurt his re-election more than the potential damage Romney's tax records could hurt Romney.
A second thing to consider is how MUCH Romney made. Americans love the underdog. If it appears as though Romney is a rich man trying to beat "poor" Obama he is not going to easily sway the poor voters.

Personally, I dont give a rats butt about Obama's college records or how he got in. You dont have to be smart to be POTUS or VP. There are plenty of youtube videos and memes about how stupid Bush was. Are any of you old enough to remember Dan Quayle? That guy could barely tie his shoes.

This isn't about who is best for the job, This is a popularity contest. We dont elect a person based on merit or ability, We elect them because we like the other guy less.
That is the point behind mud slinging. We try to make the other guy look bad. Those people that havent made up their minds on who to vote for are the ones mud slinging is aimed at. We try to convince them to NOT vote for our opponent. If they vote for our guy instead then great but we will settle for them not voting at all.

[ShuGuy]

Originally Posted by infantrystud

If they are legal loopholes then they are legal. Duh... Not sure of your point. That's a far cry from not paying any taxes. He'd be an idiot for not taking advantage of tax breaks. I think its rich (pun intended) for liberals to complain someone isn't pay their fair share. How many of Obama's minions had tax issues? They sure want higher taxes on people... Why? 'cause a lot of them don't even pay what they are supposed to!

Did I say it was illegal? No, I said it was an ethical grey area at best, and it's definitely not something you'd want to tout as a presidential candidate. Unless of course he'd want to say, "I promise to close all of the loopholes my accountants use to make sure I paid only 13% for the 2 years I released my tax returns."

[infantrystud]

And, therein lies the problem.

That's why Obama's college records are fair game. What if Obama got in to the Ivy League schools by claiming to be a foreign student, thus qualifying for all kinds of aid designed to attract those students? That would tell you something about him, would it not?

If Romney is going to branded a cheater because he took advantage of legal loopholes to lessen his tax burden then shouldn't we also examine whether Obama lied to qualify for aid as a "foreign" student?

Originally Posted by ShuGuy

Did I say it was illegal? No, I said it was an ethical grey area at best, and it's definitely not something you'd want to tout as a presidential candidate. Unless of course he'd want to say, "I promise to close all of the loopholes my accountants use to make sure I paid only 13% for the 2 years I released my tax returns."