becoming Illegal

[garison808]

Originally Posted by Captain_Fantasy

How about America deports the violent criminals there illegally at the very least?

In another thread, in Master Debaters, I suggested that citizenship be given to anyone who asked for it. Of course, this degenerated into a diatribe on freeing mass murderers, because no one in that group had the sense to understand that I said anyone. There are millions of people around the world who would jump at the chance to come here -- legally -- and start businesses. And I am fine with an amnesty program. If you and your girlfriend live as man and wife for seven years or more, you are considered to be legally married. There are squatter laws in every state: if you live in a vacant house for five to twenty years, you own that home, free and clear. The same can be done with immigration. If someone has been here for five, seven, ten years, working and paying taxes, then they are citizens by default. Or if they serve at least two years in the Armed Forces. (Are you aware that there are men who have fought in Iraq and Iran who can't get their Veteran's benefits because they don't have citizenship?)

But yes, you are correct. If an immigrant comes in the "front door" and has a criminal record, we don't let them in. (We also don't allow single Chinese women to enter alone.) So, if your "illegal" immigrant has a criminal record -- especially of violent crimes -- then, by all means don't let them stay.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by darthbob88

You also have no protection under the law, [...] so if some dude decides to rob you, mug you, or just kill you for the crime of being brown in his jurisdiction, welp, sucks to be you!

Yes, this is another issue no one wants to talk about. We are all entitled to equal protection under the law, whether we are residents or not. But "illegal" aliens often don't go to the police to report a crime, because when they do, the police are more concerned with turning the victim over to ICE than solving the crime.

This is a fact: if a man is here "illegally" with his family, and his wife is murdered, he and his remaining family will be shipped home, and no one will ever go looking for the killer.

[Thorny1]

Where the fuck do you think the illegals coming across the border are getting the $ to sneak in here. From the illegals up here working illegally getting paid illegally sending the $ back to their relatives to come up here so that more of them can come up here and send more $ back. Its a vicious circle. Paying taxes my ass. The only time they pay taxes is when theres a possibility of them being sent back to wherever they came from. Thats why so many move whenever theres a push to extradite the illegals.
And all those mass graves that are being found in Mexico. Why is it they don't broadcast what nationalities all those bodies are. More than likely they're UNdocumented immigrants from south of Mexico. They don't deal w/ people going thru their country any better than Iran, China, N.Korea or any other country where people cross the borders w/ out papers or permission.

[Captain_Fantasy]

Originally Posted by garison808

In another thread, in Master Debaters, I suggested that citizenship be given to anyone who asked for it. Of course, this degenerated into a diatribe on freeing mass murderers, because no one in that group had the sense to understand that I said anyone. There are millions of people around the world who would jump at the chance to come here -- legally -- and start businesses. And I am fine with an amnesty program. If you and your girlfriend live as man and wife for seven years or more, you are considered to be legally married. There are squatter laws in every state: if you live in a vacant house for five to twenty years, you own that home, free and clear. The same can be done with immigration. If someone has been here for five, seven, ten years, working and paying taxes, then they are citizens by default. Or if they serve at least two years in the Armed Forces. (Are you aware that there are men who have fought in Iraq and Iran who can't get their Veteran's benefits because they don't have citizenship?)

But yes, you are correct. If an immigrant comes in the "front door" and has a criminal record, we don't let them in. (We also don't allow single Chinese women to enter alone.) So, if your "illegal" immigrant has a criminal record -- especially of violent crimes -- then, by all means don't let them stay.

That's more than reasonable.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by Thorny1

The only time they pay taxes is when theres a possibility of them being sent back to wherever they came from.

Yes, that's true. And since there is always a danger that they will be sent back home, it stands to reason that they all always pay taxes. Think about that when you're driving on one of those highways "illegal" aliens pay to help maintain.

[nat2928]

Originally Posted by garison808

.

they have no rights, plain and simple. they bleed our economy, they take up seats in classrooms in college that should be going to citizens. speaking of classrooms, do you know how bad the teachers have to "dumb" down the classwork because half the students can hardly speak english. don't tell me it doesn't happen because my cousin is an elementary teacher in orlando and she tells me the stories.

i wonder how the bleeding hearts would feel if they were the only ones who had to foot the bill for the illegals?

[kd5jnx]

WOW!! Not even sure where to start with all the fallacies that garison has been posting. I guess we will start at the beginning.

Illegally entering this country is a crime that also carries civil penalties. First offense is a misdemeanor second offense is a felony and both accounts carry the possibility of jail time.
Ref: Section 1325 [of Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter II, Part VIII]

I have seen both sides of your example of the French student. Here in the US I have a Canadian friend that is here on a work visa, one night after drinking and not wanting to get a DWI he began walking back to his house, was picked up by the police and since he was publicly drunk he got a free nights stay. While processing him they of course noted that he was not a US citizen and he did not have his passport/visa with him. In the morning an Officer escorted him home and when he showed his proper paperwork he was free to go.

On the other side of it, I was in Germany in the mid 90's as a civilian contractor and while I was getting a gyro from a turkish roadside stand a fight broke out in a nearby bar and the Polizei hauled everyone in the area in. Foolish me didn't have my passport with me. They called the American Embassy and allowed one of the Marines to sign me out and take me to my apartment to retrieve my passport and return to the police station where I was quickly released (and reminded to carry my passport)

You talk about how illegals get false paperwork and go to work and pay taxes, FICA and unemployment. Employees don't pay into unemployment insurance, only the employers do.

You talk of Veterans who fought in Iraq (I will give you a pass on the fact that we don't have any vets that have fought in Iran) and Afghanistan that cannot get their benefits. That can only be their own fault. As you stated, after 2 years of active duty service all they have to do is file the paperwork. Also President Bush signed an executive order in 2002 that allows then to apply for naturalization as soon as they are sworn in, however you are supposed to be in this country or a legal territory of the US legally in order to enlist.

Just thought I would correct a few errors. I tend to get my information from actual experience or from govt documentation, not CNN, MSNBC or FOX!!

[Thorny1]

Yeah right you keep on believing they pay their fair share. Theres a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, just for you too.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by nat2928

they have no rights, plain and simple.

They have exactly the same rights you and I have. And exactly the same rights as any legal immigrant, and exactly the same rights as any tourist.

Originally Posted by nat2928

they bleed our economy,

Do you know which group provided the most jobs during the Depression? That's right: immigrants. Some of them illegal. Seems that back then, people were less concerned about a man's origins than whether he could pay a living wage.

Originally Posted by nat2928

they take up seats in classrooms in college that should be going to citizens.

So you're saying that somewhere in this country is a large number of native-born students who would be going to school save that an "illegal" student has his seat? Are you sure you want to make a statement that foolish in public?

Originally Posted by nat2928

do you know how bad the teachers have to "dumb" down the classwork because have the students can hardly speak english.

There are 49 million students in the United States enrolled in Kindergarten through 12th grade. There are 12 million "illegal" immigrants in this country. More than half come here alone, so you can safely assume that 1/10 of all are children. That's 1.2 million "illegal" students out of 49 million. As of 2009, the average classroom size was 23.6 children, and that that number goes down every year. Do the math, and you'll see that there is only one "illegal" student in every other classroom. Hardly enough to make a difference in how classes are taught, especially when you consider that immigrants in general have higher educational standards than native-born Americans.

Originally Posted by nat2928

don't tell me it doesn't happen because my cousin is an elementary teacher in orlando and she tells me the stories.

I know that our educational system is in dire straits. I also know that it is not for the reason you and your cousin imagine. Native-born Americans have become lazy and stupid, and simply don't want to put in the work involved. Classroom curriculums are "dumbed down" to suit the majority of students, not just the Hispanic kid in the back row. Employers in every state complain that half of recent high-school graduates can't read or write properly. Colleges across the country complain that freshmen have to be placed in remedial English classes. Are you saying that half of all high school graduates are "illegal" immigrants?

Speaking of poor educational standards, your missive above contains eight capitalization errors, and two grammar/punctuation errors. Are you an "illegal" immigrant?

[garison808]

Originally Posted by kd5jnx

I tend to get my information from actual experience or from govt documentation, not CNN, MSNBC or FOX!!

As do I. I don't even watch those channels.

[Thorny1]

Class sizes going down???? Where did you get that interesting bit of tripe.
Also your number of illegal per class, WRONG. Know this for a fact not BS statement.

[biotool]

Now sounds like a good time to through in the idea of the Fair Tax plan. Then anyone can stay because they will have to pay the same tax everyone else.

[nat2928]

Originally Posted by garison808

They have exactly the same rights you and I have. And exactly the same rights as any legal immigrant, and exactly the same rights as any tourist.

Do you know which group provided the most jobs during the Depression? That's right: immigrants. Some of them illegal. Seems that back then, people were less concerned about a man's origins than whether he could pay a living wage.

So you're saying that somewhere in this country is a large number of native-born students who would be going to school save that an "illegal" student has his seat? Are you sure you want to make a statement that foolish in public?ok, here you go. i posted the link and the article.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...n-us-colleges/
published Monday, March 12th, 2012

Georgia rightly moves to halt enrollment of illegal aliens in public colleges

A Times Free Press article about a bill in Georgia that would stop illegal aliens from gaining spots in public colleges in the Peach State offered some eye-opening facts about various states' policies on illegal immigrants enrolling in taxpayer-supported colleges and universities.

What's perhaps most remarkable, and troubling, is that so far only two states -- Alabama and South Carolina -- bar illegal aliens from enrolling. Georgia would make three if its bill passes.

That means 47 other states, including Tennessee, let people who are in the United States illegally take up spots in colleges and universities -- almost certainly denying some seats to law-abiding U.S. citizens.

It gets even worse than that, though.

n In 12 states, illegal aliens can officially receive in-state tuition rates to attend public colleges and universities if they happen to reside in those states. That benefit -- which can easily come to many thousands of dollars per year -- is denied to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants who happen to live in a different state from the one where the college they want to attend is located.

The states that offer this improper and unjust benefit are California, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Washington.

n Only four states -- Arizona, Colorado, Georgia and Indiana -- specifically forbid illegal aliens to receive in-state tuition rates.

n Perhaps worst of all, three states actually grant financial aid for unlawful immigrants to attend college. Those states are California, New Mexico and Texas.

Supporters of letting illegal aliens attend U.S. colleges and universities say it would destroy their academic dreams to deny them enrollment. And of course there is sympathy for anyone who wants to improve himself through education. But when it comes to sometimes-scarce spots in college classrooms and limited funding for education, there is simply no justification for putting illegal aliens ahead of U.S. citizens and immigrants who have come to the United States through legal processes.

There should be no real controversy over Georgia's legislative attempt to reserve college and university spots for citizens and legal immigrants. Or if there is any debate, it should be over the fact that Tennessee and 46 other states have not yet moved to restrict enrollment in public institutions of higher learning to Americans and lawful immigrants.

It is often said that the federal government cannot find and deport every illegal alien. That is true. But if we cut off the availability of jobs as well as benefits such as higher education, many illegal aliens will deport themselves.

There are 49 million students in the United States enrolled in Kindergarten through 12th grade. There are 12 million "illegal" immigrants in this country. More than half come here alone, so you can safely assume that 1/10 of all are children. That's 1.2 million "illegal" students out of 49 million. As of 2009, the average classroom size was 23.6 children, and that that number goes down every year. Do the math, and you'll see that there is only one "illegal" student in every other classroom. Hardly enough to make a difference in how classes are taught, especially when you consider that immigrants in general have higher educational standards than native-born Americans.

I know that our educational system is in dire straits. I also know that it is not for the reason you and your cousin imagine. Native-born Americans have become lazy and stupid, and simply don't want to put in the work involved. Classroom curriculums are "dumbed down" to suit the majority of students, not just the Hispanic kid in the back row. Employers in every state complain that half of recent high-school graduates can't read or write properly. Colleges across the country complain that freshmen have to be placed in remedial English classes. Are you saying that half of all high school graduates are "illegal" immigrants?
Number of kids needing to learn English keeps growing

A new state report shows that the number of kids entering Florida public schools having trouble speaking English continues to grow. And that growth has been particularly high in Orange County, where the number of English-language learners almost doubled to 29,541 students from 2001 to 2010, according to the Florida Department of Education.

Statewide, about 9 percent of public-school kids need help learning to speak English last school year. In Orange, 17 percent of children did — the same amount as in Miami-Dade County. The percentage was a bit higher in Osceola County (18 percent).

The state report notes that while Osceola had the highest percentage of English-language learners in the state last school year, Orange saw the biggest increase – from 10 percent in 2000-01 to 17 percent in 2009-10.

You can read the report in detail by going here: http://www.fldoe.org/eias/eiaspubs/pdf/ell0910.pdf.


trust me, she works in kissimmee(osceola county), it is that bad. when you have to spend so much time trying to explain something to a child that can hardly understand english, it takes away from the students that are in those classes. when you have to break out pictures to explain things, it takes up time in those classes. i'm not wasting any more time on some of this, look it up yourself.



Speaking of poor educational standards, your missive above contains eight capitalization errors, and two grammar/punctuation errors. Are you an "illegal" immigrant?

i didn't know i was taking the SAT test. i always type lower case.

Originally Posted by garison808

Native-born Americans have become lazy and stupid, and simply don't want to put in the work involved.

really? my oldest, 13, is in the cambridge program

http://schoolchoice.brevard.k12.fl.u.../rockledge.htm

he has busted his ass to get in there. and my daughter, 11, is right on his heels. she is doing the same classes as he did to get where he is at now. he will be taking college classes when he is in the 9th grade. are they the exceptions? no. most of their friends are doing the same thing. if you care about your kids future, you will make sure they have a great education. you will make sure they they do their homework and strive for excellence.

[nat2928]

how can it be put so people can understand? let's see.

you own a home, america. someone comes busting through your front door and enters you home, the border. they are there unwanted. they are there illegally!

what do you do? you could shoot them if you wanted. or you call the police, I.C.E. 1-866-DHS-2-ICE.

the invaders, illegals
would go to jail. why? because they have committed a crime. they broke into your house, america.

i hope you get the picture. it's almost like teaching illegals in school.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by Thorny1

Class sizes going down???? Where did you get that interesting bit of tripe.

Experience. When I went to school, there was an average of 32 students in every classroom, in every school across the country. Today, the average classroom size is just over 20 students. In the next five years, we can expect that to go down to 15 (because today's teachers are too lazy to teach). That's the very definition of "class sizes going down."

Originally Posted by Thorny1

Also your number of illegal per class, WRONG. Know this for a fact not BS statement.

No, you "know" this as right-wing propaganda, and, as such, it is not fact.

Instead of pretending to be intelligent actually use you brain for once, for something besides cooling the blood. Do some research. Find out how many K-12 students there are nation wide. Then find out how many "illegal" immigrant children there are in those schools. Then divide. After you've reached the same conclusion that I did, you can come back here and apologize.

[Thorny1]

BS from top to bottom. When did you go to school? Last yr?

I know how many illegals are in my town and the surrounding area. Multiply that w/ the state(s). Do your own research.

And no illegals don't have the right to be here.

[lefty6t]

Originally Posted by kd5jnx

WOW!! Not even sure where to start with all the fallacies that garison has been posting. I guess we will start at the beginning.

Illegally entering this country is a crime that also carries civil penalties. First offense is a misdemeanor second offense is a felony and both accounts carry the possibility of jail time.
Ref: Section 1325 [of Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter II, Part VIII]

I have seen both sides of your example of the French student. Here in the US I have a Canadian friend that is here on a work visa, one night after drinking and not wanting to get a DWI he began walking back to his house, was picked up by the police and since he was publicly drunk he got a free nights stay. While processing him they of course noted that he was not a US citizen and he did not have his passport/visa with him. In the morning an Officer escorted him home and when he showed his proper paperwork he was free to go.

On the other side of it, I was in Germany in the mid 90's as a civilian contractor and while I was getting a gyro from a turkish roadside stand a fight broke out in a nearby bar and the Polizei hauled everyone in the area in. Foolish me didn't have my passport with me. They called the American Embassy and allowed one of the Marines to sign me out and take me to my apartment to retrieve my passport and return to the police station where I was quickly released (and reminded to carry my passport)

You talk about how illegals get false paperwork and go to work and pay taxes, FICA and unemployment. Employees don't pay into unemployment insurance, only the employers do.

You talk of Veterans who fought in Iraq (I will give you a pass on the fact that we don't have any vets that have fought in Iran) and Afghanistan that cannot get their benefits. That can only be their own fault. As you stated, after 2 years of active duty service all they have to do is file the paperwork. Also President Bush signed an executive order in 2002 that allows then to apply for naturalization as soon as they are sworn in, however you are supposed to be in this country or a legal territory of the US legally in order to enlist.

Just thought I would correct a few errors. I tend to get my information from actual experience or from govt documentation, not CNN, MSNBC or FOX!!

thank you

[nat2928]

it's funny how when i presented garison with facts to back up what i had said and links to show where the info came from, he didn't respond back. hmmm.

[nat2928]

Originally Posted by garison808

Instead of pretending to be intelligent actually use you brain for once, for something besides cooling the blood. Do some research. Find out how many K-12 students there are nation wide. Then find out how many "illegal" immigrant children there are in those schools. Then divide. After you've reached the same conclusion that I did, you can come back here and apologize.

but here is the problem with your math, you want to take the whole country and use it for base number. wrong! take the major cities/states where illegals are more prevalent and then you see where the problem is. as i showed you in my other post which you didn't respond to, orlando area schools are running close to 20% non-english speaking kids from mostly families that have just arrived and have yet to master the english language. i'm sure it is the same if not higher in ca, n.m., ar., and tx.

i wonder what would happen if I.C.E. set up shop in all the emergency rooms in some of the higher populated states for illegals? they would come in to get free treatment, but instead get a "get out of the USA free" card. you could have a bus that leaves on the hour, every hour, headed straight for the border.

[garison808]

Originally Posted by nat2928

take the major cities/states where illegals are more prevalent and then you see where the problem is. as i showed you in my other post which you didn't respond to, orlando area schools are running close to 20% non-english speaking kids from mostly families that have just arrived and have yet to master the english language. i'm sure it is the same if not higher in ca, n.m., ar., and tx.

And because you really don't understand what it is you are talking about, you blame "illegal" immigrants for the "dumbing down" of today's schools. As "proof" -- again, because you have no idea what you are talking about -- you say that education levels in schools in Orlando, Florida are dropping because 20% of the students there are "illegal" immigrants and can't speak the language.

What you do not pay attention to -- because you don't know what you are talking about -- is that education levels are dropping all over the country. Not just Florida, not just California, not just Georgia, but all over the country. Every State.

Now, you say this is because the classrooms are 20% "illegal" immigrants. Well, that's in Florida, where there are only about 760,000 "illegal" immigrants. So how does this explain the deplorable educational levels in Hawaii, where "illegal" immigrants number far less than 10,000?


Now, you say that schools in Orlando have to "dumb down" their classes, as you are told by your cousin, who is purportedly a teacher there. Yet, if you look at nation standings, Florida comes in as "average". If there was actually any "dumbing down" going on, Florida would be ranked below average.


What is actually happening is this: teachers like you cousin -- and probably especially your cousin -- are too lazy to do their jobs properly. Instead of taking the time to actually, teach, they blame the few students in the class who are intelligent enough to know how to speak two languages. Your cousin would be better off becoming a political assistant. Politicians are always looking for professional excuse-makers.