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Old 03-17-2017, 03:46 PM   #21
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If their unwilling to accept christians there, why would they suddenly change their mind when they come to this country.
You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government. All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government. Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.

I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more. It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard. The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.

I am pleasently surprised, that was well thought out and relevent.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:03 PM   #22
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Wrong. I know that it doesn't matter.

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You feel that what other countries do shouldn't affect what we do.
Because it shouldn't.
Then what you know is wrong. It does matter. You have to ask yourself why they feel that way. Do they have a valid reason? If so, does the same reasoning apply when we take in certain types of migrants? Are we doing something that seems short term good but is long term bad for both migrants and our country?

What other countries do shouldn't affect what we do, I agree, but in the real world, it does, like it or not.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:15 PM   #23
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You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government. All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government. Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.

I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more. It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard. The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.
This is kumbaya thinking. All people are basically good and will of course assimilate into our society without any problems. What a load of hogwash. Look around. It is blatantly obvious that they are not assimilating. Countries that have taken lots of Muslim migrants are having major problems. Immigrants from tribal cultures are bringing their tribal beliefs with them. The law? Sorry, they're not part of our tribe so laws don't apply.

Look at your own history. Did America grow peacefully, from peaceful migrants? What a laugh. The migrants rampaged across the land, doing as they wanted. Law? The law of the gun ruled. It wasn't called the wild west for nothing. Law and order had to be enforced, and that enforcement is sadly lacking today. Oh, he did that because he's a Muslim, so we need to excuse that sort of behaviour. Oh, he's from African descent, so we must make allowances.

You talk about freedom. Your attitude seems to be that people have the freedom to do that which you approve of. If someone does something you don't approve of it will be loudly condemned, no matter how legal it is. If someone does something you approve of you will loudly cheer, no matter how illegal it is. You have picked a side and will support it, come what may. Try opening your eyes and looking at real world consequences. Condemn anti-social behaviour based on the behaviour, not for the politics of the person doing the behavior.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:38 PM   #24
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What other countries do shouldn't affect what we do, I agree
That's the first intelligent thing you've said in a god-awful long time.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:08 PM   #25
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You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government. All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government. Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.

I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more. It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard. The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.
This is kumbaya thinking. All people are basically good and will of course assimilate into our society without any problems.

This is typical of the responses I get from you and the other stupid people in this forum. You pretend to read what I write, but you don't actually. You might catch one or two words out of a dozen, but you fill in the missing parts with your own biases and bigotry. Go back and read my quoted post again, and keep reading it until you understand why your response is nonsense.

Here's a hint: Unlike your own posts, which are mostly meaningless drivel, Every Single Word I Use has a specific and intended meaning. When you gloss over my posts, reading only random words, you miss that meaning.
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Old 03-17-2017, 10:07 PM   #26
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You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government.
No. We are assuming that these people are of the same culture - the Islamic culture for the most part. This is a culture that is non-compatible with western democracy. The people will bring the culture with them, as it's part of who they are.

All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government.
This is true. Unreasoning disharmony for the most part, but still true.

Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.
It is not them foisting their own persecution upon us. As you say, that sort of reasoning is foolish. What we are worried about is the fact that they are trying to foist their culture upon us, with all its inherent faults.
I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more.
Not so. I understand and appreciate the liberties inherent in my society.
It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard.
Not so. They come here either for economic reasons or to move away from an intolerable situation.
The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.
Unfortunately this is not so. Why do you think that there are terrorist acts in the US? It's certainly not because there is a love of your fellow man.
Some of them will be thankful for the freedoms that they have gained. Of course, they don't expect to have to pass these same freedom's on to their women. That would be against their culture and the teachings of Islam.

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Old 03-17-2017, 10:56 PM   #27
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If their unwilling to accept christians there, why would they suddenly change their mind when they come to this country.
You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government. All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government. Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.

I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more. It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard. The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.


Assuming defiently not. For example some immigrants we get along with such as mexicans. But yet why do we need to push number 1 to get english. Why is the mexican flag be flown in various parts of the US. Remeber those are people we get along with and they are not assimilating to this country. So what do you think people that do not like us will try to get away with.

And no I'm fully aware of the frredoms I get in this country. I remeber the stories my great grandfather told about coming to this country. And yes people that came to this country in the past were thankful of rights given to them. The current immigrants, not so much. They now expect them, and liberals also think these people should be allowed to come here and not assimilate, because it wrong to take their culture away. The liberals think its ok for immigrants to come in and walk all over the american people, with the excuse of well you were born here you don't know what its like. Its a bull shit excuse, and logic needs to rein over this idiotic moral high road that its our responsbility to save the world.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:14 PM   #28
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You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government.
No. We are assuming that these people are of the same culture - the Islamic culture for the most part.
Which is exactly the same as assume that they are of the same bent as their government. You're saying, "No, but yes." Perhaps if you learned English, you would understand what you are saying better.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:24 PM   #29
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If their unwilling to accept christians there, why would they suddenly change their mind when they come to this country.
You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government.
Assuming defiently not.
First you say that Muslims may not accept Christians in this country.
Then I say, you're assuming they will retain the anti-Christian mindset of their government.
And you reply, "Assuming definitely not." In other words, you assume they will "definitely not" follow the teachings of their government.

Like Ashson, you not only can't understand what other people are saying, you also can't understand what you are saying.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:33 PM   #30
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You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government.
Assuming defiently not.
First you say that Muslims may not accept Christians in this country.
Then I say, you're assuming they will retain the anti-Christian mindset of their government.
And you reply, "Assuming definitely not." In other words, you assume they will "definitely not" follow the teachings of their government.

Like Ashson, you not only can't understand what other people are saying, you also can't understand what you are saying.

Aww so cute your going to play the word game instead of actually addressing what I said. What a joke. When you revert to those games you already know you have lost.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by garison808
You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government.
Assuming defiently not.
First you say that Muslims may not accept Christians in this country.
Then I say, you're assuming they will retain the anti-Christian mindset of their government.
And you reply, "Assuming definitely not." In other words, you assume they will "definitely not" follow the teachings of their government.

Like Ashson, you not only can't understand what other people are saying, you also can't understand what you are saying.


Let me clarify for you. I am not assuming anything. As immigrants have proven otherwise. There is no assumption when their is proof of actions.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:17 AM   #32
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If their unwilling to accept christians there, why would they suddenly change their mind when they come to this country.
You are assuming that the refugees who come here are of the same bent as the people who run their government. All of the disharmony surrounding our own so-called President should show you that people here disagree with our own government. Why should we assume that refugees, who are fleeing the persecution imposed upon them by their own government, would come here and foist that same persecution on the very people who rescued them? That kind of reasoning is foolish, at best.

I think you have become so inured to the freedoms and benefits we possess simply by being born in this country that you don't recognize them any more. It's time you realized that people come to this country specifically to earn the freedoms you disregard. The refugees who immigrate here will not openly hate Christians. They will, instead, be thankful for the freedoms you discount.

Surprisingly a well thought out reply.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:27 AM   #33
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No. We are assuming that these people are of the same culture - the Islamic culture for the most part.
Which is exactly the same as assume that they are of the same bent as their government. You're saying, "No, but yes." Perhaps if you learned English, you would understand what you are saying better.
You are assigning values and statements to me that I did not make. The failure is not mine but yours, in that you seem to fail to grasp the concept of culture as opposed to government.

Islam is a culture that embodies law, politics, and religion. Just because these people aren't bringing their government and their problems with their government with them it doesn't mean that they're not bringing their culture. How can they help but bring it? It's part of who they are. It's not their current government that's the problem. Governments rise and fall. It's the rigidity of an unchanging culture that does not want to change, set in place by a book written 1500 years ago.
It is a mindset that still harks back to a medieval frame of mind, unwilling to adapt to changing times. In Islam you have a static and stagnant culture that represses those who try to change it. Opposed to this is our western culture that is always changing, adapting. The reluctance of people to change means that when the Islamic culture bumps into the western culture there is conflict. On the western side this means that we negotiate and try to come to an understanding. On the Islamic side it means they check out the Quran and reach for a sword.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:09 PM   #34
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Garison doesn't get it. Surprisingly naive.

I've lived and worked in predominantly Muslim countries. Places where they are friendly so long as they know I'm armed or with their fellow countrymen that are armed. But, try going out on your own and you would be snatched up within an hour.

A Youtube video was going around about a contractor in Iraq talking about conversations with his Iraqi counterparts who were upset at Pres Trump's immigration status. So, he asked them what would happen if he wondered off base in Baghdad. They said he'd be captured, killed, tortured pretty quickly. That's from the local populace. So, he posed a question - why should we let people in our country if I would be in such danger just walking the streets of Baghdad? Its a good question. An uncomfortable question as well. And, yes, I realize not all Muslims are blood thirsty killers. But, in some of these countries, we have no way of knowing who is who.

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Originally Posted by garison808
Which is exactly the same as assume that they are of the same bent as their government. You're saying, "No, but yes." Perhaps if you learned English, you would understand what you are saying better.
You are assigning values and statements to me that I did not make. The failure is not mine but yours, in that you seem to fail to grasp the concept of culture as opposed to government.

Islam is a culture that embodies law, politics, and religion. Just because these people aren't bringing their government and their problems with their government with them it doesn't mean that they're not bringing their culture. How can they help but bring it? It's part of who they are. It's not their current government that's the problem. Governments rise and fall. It's the rigidity of an unchanging culture that does not want to change, set in place by a book written 1500 years ago.
It is a mindset that still harks back to a medieval frame of mind, unwilling to adapt to changing times. In Islam you have a static and stagnant culture that represses those who try to change it. Opposed to this is our western culture that is always changing, adapting. The reluctance of people to change means that when the Islamic culture bumps into the western culture there is conflict. On the western side this means that we negotiate and try to come to an understanding. On the Islamic side it means they check out the Quran and reach for a sword.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by garison808
Which is exactly the same as assume that they are of the same bent as their government. You're saying, "No, but yes." Perhaps if you learned English, you would understand what you are saying better.
You are assigning values and statements to me that I did not make. The failure is not mine but yours, in that you seem to fail to grasp the concept of culture as opposed to government.

Islam is a culture that embodies law, politics, and religion. Just because these people aren't bringing their government and their problems with their government with them it doesn't mean that they're not bringing their culture. How can they help but bring it? It's part of who they are. It's not their current government that's the problem. Governments rise and fall. It's the rigidity of an unchanging culture that does not want to change, set in place by a book written 1500 years ago.
It is a mindset that still harks back to a medieval frame of mind, unwilling to adapt to changing times. In Islam you have a static and stagnant culture that represses those who try to change it. Opposed to this is our western culture that is always changing, adapting. The reluctance of people to change means that when the Islamic culture bumps into the western culture there is conflict. On the western side this means that we negotiate and try to come to an understanding. On the Islamic side it means they check out the Quran and reach for a sword.
My problem with arguments like this is that you can say a lot of the same shit, and Fred Clark has, about white Evangelical Christianity. Maybe not the bloodthirstiness, most self-described Christians would rather kill people passively than actively, but the whole "We must control religion and law and politics, just the way we like it" business is still true. You're just OK with Christians running the show because you're not terrified of Christians leaving you to die in the street.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:50 PM   #36
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My problem with arguments like this is that you can say a lot of the same shit, and Fred Clark has, about white Evangelical Christianity. Maybe not the bloodthirstiness, most self-described Christians would rather kill people passively than actively, but the whole "We must control religion and law and politics, just the way we like it" business is still true. You're just OK with Christians running the show because you're not terrified of Christians leaving you to die in the street.
It is true that some evangelical Christians think that way, wanting to control religion, law, and politics. That is not the Christian way, however. Did not Christ say render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's?

The big difference between the two cultures as that while some people in the west have that mindset, Islam as a whole has that mindset and are willing to enforce it with a sword.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:44 PM   #37
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Why add personal attacks to discussions?
What personal attacks?

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If you can't see the logic behind the question no-one can explain it to you.
If you knew how to read English, you wouldn't have made such a stupid response.

I never said I couldn't see the logic behind the statement. I fully recognize that there are morons in this world (such as yourself) who think this is acceptable logic. (It isn't.)

My question still stands: "Why does that matter?" Try actually answering the question, if you can ever figure out what it means.


Those personal attacks.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:54 AM   #38
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My problem with arguments like this is that you can say a lot of the same shit, and Fred Clark has, about white Evangelical Christianity. Maybe not the bloodthirstiness, most self-described Christians would rather kill people passively than actively, but the whole "We must control religion and law and politics, just the way we like it" business is still true. You're just OK with Christians running the show because you're not terrified of Christians leaving you to die in the street.
It is true that some evangelical Christians think that way, wanting to control religion, law, and politics. That is not the Christian way, however. Did not Christ say render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's?

The big difference between the two cultures as that while some people in the west have that mindset, Islam as a whole has that mindset and are willing to enforce it with a sword.
a) I'm not terribly concerned about whether these people represent the True Christian Way, I'm concerned about whether these people actually get to run the show the way they want to.
b) I know a lot of Muslims who'd argue that the new Caliphate are no more representative of their faith than Christian Dominionists are of theirs.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:48 AM   #39
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a) I'm not terribly concerned about whether these people represent the True Christian Way, I'm concerned about whether these people actually get to run the show the way they want to.
b) I know a lot of Muslims who'd argue that the new Caliphate are no more representative of their faith than Christian Dominionists are of theirs.

a) These people don't get to run the show because they don't get voted in as a party. They are a minority. Even if the occasional one enters politics there are checks and balances to control them. Your Bill of Rights, for a start.

b) This may be so but Muslim fundamentalists are gaining more and more power. Have you noticed the political events unfolding in Turkey? If the fundamentalists don't represent the true faith then why do they not speak more strongly against it. (Apart from the fact that they get killed if they do so.)
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:50 AM   #40
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a) I'm not terribly concerned about whether these people represent the True Christian Way, I'm concerned about whether these people actually get to run the show the way they want to.
b) I know a lot of Muslims who'd argue that the new Caliphate are no more representative of their faith than Christian Dominionists are of theirs.

a) These people don't get to run the show because they don't get voted in as a party. They are a minority. Even if the occasional one enters politics there are checks and balances to control them. Your Bill of Rights, for a start.

b) This may be so but Muslim fundamentalists are gaining more and more power. Have you noticed the political events unfolding in Turkey? If the fundamentalists don't represent the true faith then why do they not speak more strongly against it. (Apart from the fact that they get killed if they do so.)
First I have to note your downplaying the threat of Christian fundamentalists, followed by fearmongering about the threat of Muslim fundamentalists, which is kinda my point from earlier. Second, checks and balances against Christian fundamentalism only really work as long as people are willing to stand up and enforce them in defense of their neighbors. You'll forgive me if I'm hesitant to rely on that after this last election. Thirdly, will this do? Or this? I expect they won't, because people can always speak out more strongly against fundamentalism and in defense of a secular society, and they can always get more people to join them in their protests, so it'll never be good enough. Nuts to that, be satisfied that there's a good chunk that cared enough to come out and disagree with the fundamentalists, rather than niggling over just how much larger that chunk could be.
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