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Old 03-14-2017, 05:44 AM   #21
65dart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Or that employee goes someplace where he can actually get paid what he's worth. If, as we have accepted as a premise, that employee is actually worth more than minimum wage, and their current employer can't pay them more than minimum wage, that employer is going to lose an employee regardless of what the minimum wage actually is.

Quote:
Show me a program that helps blue collar workers. I know I can't find one.
Well, my parents both work full-time still, and they get heating assistance through LIHEAP. So, that one, for a start. These programs don't help blue-collar people, they help poor people, and as long as there are poor blue-collar workers, they help blue-collar workers. As I said originally.

Quote:
No I don't see the difference I want to live in a certain location which has better houses and location, these people want to live in seattle. So what's the difference they could easily move to the out skirts where it is cheaper. That is exactly what I have done. I live in a location I can afford, so why shold the people of Seattle get free money because they want to live in a certain location.
Buddy, have you seen the rent on the Eastside, especially compared to like SODO and the Central District? Seattle is the cheaper outskirts.

Quote:
No its an argument you attempted to dismiss my whole argument simply on spelling. That's not an insult that's a scapegoat argument.
I did nothing of the sort.
Quote:
One more time darth those taxes breaks are too make taxes fair so the rich are not doubled tax. And wanton theft is hilliarious, those so called thieves are the ones giving everyone a job. Piss them off by overtaxing they will just shut the doors and your out of a job.
The "wanton theft" I was referring to was taxes, so the "so-called thieves" are federal bureaucrats and the IRS, and therefore nice self-own.


No that is not how it works darth. If a job is worth 15 dollars an hour then its worth 15 dollars plain and simple. So when minium wage gets bumped up to 15 dollars an hour, the 15 dollar an hour is still a 15 dollar an hour job, so you have now brought the guy that had a somewhat decent paying job down to working a crappy job. There is no leverage here, there is no he will go work somewhere else for more, because his job is worth 15 where ever he goes.

You seem to be confusing blue collar workers with poor people. Oh thats right seatlle raised minium wage to the level of blue collar so now blue collar people are poor. Apparently your definition of blue collar and my definition of blue collar are different.

Does it really matter what area we are talking about, these people want a hand out so they can live where they prefer to live. As I said before if you can't make enough money for where you want to live you do like the rest of normal people and move to a cheaper area. Such as the town I live in is pretty dirt cheap to live in and people drive anywhere from an half hour to an hour half to work, because they can't afford the area's where they work.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Or that employee goes someplace where he can actually get paid what he's worth. If, as we have accepted as a premise, that employee is actually worth more than minimum wage, and their current employer can't pay them more than minimum wage, that employer is going to lose an employee regardless of what the minimum wage actually is.

Quote:
Show me a program that helps blue collar workers. I know I can't find one.
Well, my parents both work full-time still, and they get heating assistance through LIHEAP. So, that one, for a start. These programs don't help blue-collar people, they help poor people, and as long as there are poor blue-collar workers, they help blue-collar workers. As I said originally.

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No I don't see the difference I want to live in a certain location which has better houses and location, these people want to live in seattle. So what's the difference they could easily move to the out skirts where it is cheaper. That is exactly what I have done. I live in a location I can afford, so why shold the people of Seattle get free money because they want to live in a certain location.
Buddy, have you seen the rent on the Eastside, especially compared to like SODO and the Central District? Seattle is the cheaper outskirts.

Quote:
No its an argument you attempted to dismiss my whole argument simply on spelling. That's not an insult that's a scapegoat argument.
I did nothing of the sort.
Quote:
One more time darth those taxes breaks are too make taxes fair so the rich are not doubled tax. And wanton theft is hilliarious, those so called thieves are the ones giving everyone a job. Piss them off by overtaxing they will just shut the doors and your out of a job.
The "wanton theft" I was referring to was taxes, so the "so-called thieves" are federal bureaucrats and the IRS, and therefore nice self-own.


And please clarify the wanton theft statement as it is clearly not coming off as you say it is.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
I'd kinda figured that "government taking money for themselves" was a main if not the defining characteristic of a tax.
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I think you'll find that rent control is helping tenants hang on to their hard earned cash. This is, after all, the crux of dart's complaint against the concept, that it's providing working Americans with more-affordable housing.
Helping tenants hang on to their hard earned cash at the expense of another American. Why should a person who has worked hard and managed to invest in a rentable property suddenly find themselves being done out of their hard earned cash just so someone else can get cheaper rent?

Just because someone rents out a place it doesn't mean that they're a bloated plutocrat. They are entitled to a fair return for the time and money they have invested in the property.
A tenant being allowed affordable housing and stable rents is generally considered a desirable situation, especially compared to their being forced to move house every time their landlord decides to hit them with a rent increase. Not all renters are poor, suffering capitalists, some of them are predatory assholes.


Hey darth its called a lease, it keeps your rent from going up for a predetermined period.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:33 AM   #24
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I applaud Darthbob's persistence in sticking up for the little man. But so much of it is misguided and doesn't consider 2nd and 3rd order effects. Or hell, even the law of unintended consequences.

And, we can't just print money in perpetuity, either.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 65dart
No that is not how it works darth. If a job is worth 15 dollars an hour then its worth 15 dollars plain and simple. So when minium wage gets bumped up to 15 dollars an hour, the 15 dollar an hour is still a 15 dollar an hour job, so you have now brought the guy that had a somewhat decent paying job down to working a crappy job. There is no leverage here, there is no he will go work somewhere else for more, because his job is worth 15 where ever he goes.
Except that if you're taking that route, $15/hr is $30K/year, and still a decent wage, even if it is the minimum.

Quote:
You seem to be confusing blue collar workers with poor people. Oh thats right seatlle raised minium wage to the level of blue collar so now blue collar people are poor. Apparently your definition of blue collar and my definition of blue collar are different.
Apparently, if your definition of blue collar excludes shit like my father the janitor.
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Does it really matter what area we are talking about, these people want a hand out so they can live where they prefer to live. As I said before if you can't make enough money for where you want to live you do like the rest of normal people and move to a cheaper area. Such as the town I live in is pretty dirt cheap to live in and people drive anywhere from an half hour to an hour half to work, because they can't afford the area's where they work.
Yes it does matter what area we're talking about, because your argument is predicated on "These people want assistance to live in an expensive area, they should live somewhere cheaper", and I'm telling you, they are living somewhere cheaper.
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Originally Posted by 65dart
And please clarify the wanton theft statement as it is clearly not coming off as you say it is.
Quote:
As opposed to welfare, which is just wanton theft to benefit a bunch of filthy moochers.
I'm honestly not sure I can make it much clearer.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Except that if you're taking that route, $15/hr is $30K/year, and still a decent wage, even if it is the minimum.

Quote:
You seem to be confusing blue collar workers with poor people. Oh thats right seatlle raised minium wage to the level of blue collar so now blue collar people are poor. Apparently your definition of blue collar and my definition of blue collar are different.
Apparently, if your definition of blue collar excludes shit like my father the janitor.
Quote:
Does it really matter what area we are talking about, these people want a hand out so they can live where they prefer to live. As I said before if you can't make enough money for where you want to live you do like the rest of normal people and move to a cheaper area. Such as the town I live in is pretty dirt cheap to live in and people drive anywhere from an half hour to an hour half to work, because they can't afford the area's where they work.
Yes it does matter what area we're talking about, because your argument is predicated on "These people want assistance to live in an expensive area, they should live somewhere cheaper", and I'm telling you, they are living somewhere cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65dart
And please clarify the wanton theft statement as it is clearly not coming off as you say it is.
Quote:
As opposed to welfare, which is just wanton theft to benefit a bunch of filthy moochers.
I'm honestly not sure I can make it much clearer.

Except that raising minium wage raises inflation, so 30k a year becomes no longer a good wage. Since our wages are basically stagnet the guy that was making 15 and it was a good wage doesn't get a raise, so he has now become a minium wage worker, and has joined the class of the poor.

I was trying to be nice on that one darth. Your parents are a poor example as they shown in the past that can and will take advantage of the system.

Their not living somewhere cheaper they want to live in the seattle area, if they want cheaper then move out of the seattle area. Such as your self for example, I don't know where you live but you work from home. So their is no need for you to live even near the major city. get it now.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:14 PM   #27
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This whole discussion.... Why not make it $25/hour? I mean, like, lets really give them a good raise. What's the problem with that?
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
This whole discussion.... Why not make it $25/hour? I mean, like, lets really give them a good raise. What's the problem with that?
That's unnecessarily high for a wage floor, and actually would destroy jobs the way you think $15/hr would. Fifteen offers a good compromise between bumping McDonald's workers above the poverty line so they can get by without welfare, and reducing the demand for McDonald's workers so they're unemployed.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:34 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 65dart
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Except that if you're taking that route, $15/hr is $30K/year, and still a decent wage, even if it is the minimum.

Apparently, if your definition of blue collar excludes shit like my father the janitor.
Quote:
Does it really matter what area we are talking about, these people want a hand out so they can live where they prefer to live. As I said before if you can't make enough money for where you want to live you do like the rest of normal people and move to a cheaper area. Such as the town I live in is pretty dirt cheap to live in and people drive anywhere from an half hour to an hour half to work, because they can't afford the area's where they work.
Yes it does matter what area we're talking about, because your argument is predicated on "These people want assistance to live in an expensive area, they should live somewhere cheaper", and I'm telling you, they are living somewhere cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65dart
And please clarify the wanton theft statement as it is clearly not coming off as you say it is.
Quote:
As opposed to welfare, which is just wanton theft to benefit a bunch of filthy moochers.
I'm honestly not sure I can make it much clearer.

Except that raising minium wage raises inflation, so 30k a year becomes no longer a good wage. Since our wages are basically stagnet the guy that was making 15 and it was a good wage doesn't get a raise, so he has now become a minium wage worker, and has joined the class of the poor.
You can't have it both ways, though. You can't argue that minimum wage is going to drive up prices so a $2 burger costs $5 after the wage hike, whilst and simultaneously arguing that a given man-hour of labor is worth $15 and only $15. Either the hamburger is only worth and only costs $2, or a worker's wages are driven up by inflation, take your pick.
Quote:
Their not living somewhere cheaper they want to live in the seattle area, if they want cheaper then move out of the seattle area. Such as your self for example, I don't know where you live but you work from home. So their is no need for you to live even near the major city. get it now.
Actually, I'm currently living in Seattle and working in Redmond as a Microsoft contractor, so unlike you I know what I'm talking about here.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:20 AM   #30
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What do you say to the McDonald's shift manager who has toiled away at Mickie Ds for 8 years and is now making $15/hour? I mean, what do you say to him that Johnny Hamburger, aged 15 is coming on board at $15 after the law passes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
This whole discussion.... Why not make it $25/hour? I mean, like, lets really give them a good raise. What's the problem with that?
That's unnecessarily high for a wage floor, and actually would destroy jobs the way you think $15/hr would. Fifteen offers a good compromise between bumping McDonald's workers above the poverty line so they can get by without welfare, and reducing the demand for McDonald's workers so they're unemployed.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by infantrystud
What do you say to the McDonald's shift manager who has toiled away at Mickie Ds for 8 years and is now making $15/hour? I mean, what do you say to him that Johnny Hamburger, aged 15 is coming on board at $15 after the law passes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthbob88
That's unnecessarily high for a wage floor, and actually would destroy jobs the way you think $15/hr would. Fifteen offers a good compromise between bumping McDonald's workers above the poverty line so they can get by without welfare, and reducing the demand for McDonald's workers so they're unemployed.
Congratulations, you're getting a raise to $20/hr? Dude's got more responsibility than the new fish, so the only way McDonald's is going to keep him is if they offer him more pay as well.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:39 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
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Originally Posted by 65dart
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Originally Posted by darthbob88
Except that if you're taking that route, $15/hr is $30K/year, and still a decent wage, even if it is the minimum.

Apparently, if your definition of blue collar excludes shit like my father the janitor.
Yes it does matter what area we're talking about, because your argument is predicated on "These people want assistance to live in an expensive area, they should live somewhere cheaper", and I'm telling you, they are living somewhere cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65dart
And please clarify the wanton theft statement as it is clearly not coming off as you say it is.
Quote:
As opposed to welfare, which is just wanton theft to benefit a bunch of filthy moochers.
I'm honestly not sure I can make it much clearer.

Except that raising minium wage raises inflation, so 30k a year becomes no longer a good wage. Since our wages are basically stagnet the guy that was making 15 and it was a good wage doesn't get a raise, so he has now become a minium wage worker, and has joined the class of the poor.
You can't have it both ways, though. You can't argue that minimum wage is going to drive up prices so a $2 burger costs $5 after the wage hike, whilst and simultaneously arguing that a given man-hour of labor is worth $15 and only $15. Either the hamburger is only worth and only costs $2, or a worker's wages are driven up by inflation, take your pick.
Quote:
Their not living somewhere cheaper they want to live in the seattle area, if they want cheaper then move out of the seattle area. Such as your self for example, I don't know where you live but you work from home. So their is no need for you to live even near the major city. get it now.
Actually, I'm currently living in Seattle and working in Redmond as a Microsoft contractor, so unlike you I know what I'm talking about here.

I can have it both ways simply because wages are based on a percentage. So employee x makes the company this much money, he gets y% of the profits. So trying to bumble thru your example here because it is not exactley clear since your mashing things togther. But simply minium wage goes ups, Profits goes down. To return profit to proper amount prices must go up. so now the guy making fifteen is still in the same place as he is getting the same percentage. Now if you just had straight inflation, and no other cost flucation, his wages would go up. But you have brought all the minum wage workers up to his percentage and in turn brought him down by his wages not increasing by the same percentage as the mnium wage workers.

What does you living in seattle have anything to do with it. It still dosen't change that people are asking for a free handout so they can live where they want to live. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be living there plain and simple, not expect the goverment to force a building owner to take a cut in profits.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:42 AM   #33
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What do you say to the McDonald's shift manager who has toiled away at Mickie Ds for 8 years and is now making $15/hour? I mean, what do you say to him that Johnny Hamburger, aged 15 is coming on board at $15 after the law passes?

Congratulations, you're getting a raise to $20/hr? Dude's got more responsibility than the new fish, so the only way McDonald's is going to keep him is if they offer him more pay as well.

haha, that is seriously the funniest thing I have ever heard. yep the guy is going to demand a raise and mcdonalds is going to say see ya, hey you over there your the new manger.
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:25 AM   #34
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What do you say to the McDonald's shift manager who has toiled away at Mickie Ds for 8 years and is now making $15/hour? I mean, what do you say to him that Johnny Hamburger, aged 15 is coming on board at $15 after the law passes?

Congratulations, you're getting a raise to $20/hr? Dude's got more responsibility than the new fish, so the only way McDonald's is going to keep him is if they offer him more pay as well.

Actually doing a little digging I found some interesting things about seattles wage hike. It resulted on an average increase of wages by 54 cents. Simply because between lay offs, cut hours, and the bringing in of automated machines. So It created a bunch of unemployment and the people that did stay working are actually getting less as they are working less hours.

It also hurt the poor in other ways. Who is the biggest buyer of fast food, low income people. In order to make ends meet Mc Donalds drop many items off their food deals like the dollar menu, instead of raising other prices, which in turn it now cost poor people more to buy fast food.

I found another intresting thing. All those studies that show it will cost mcdonalds hardley anything to raise minimum wage, are lying. Well twisting the info anywase. It will cost mcdonalds hardly anything to give a raise to all their minium wage employees, but the emplyoees in between minium wage and the fifteen dollars is what is going to cost them a fortune. All the studies trying to show raising of minium wage as good thing leave those people out of the numbers because their not minium wage workers.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:56 AM   #35
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So, essentially everyone working there is going to get a raise of some sort. I'm not sure how that meshes with their ability to keep prices low. Jobs at McDonalds are not meant to support someone for life. And, yes, I realize some people still attempt to make a living working in fast food.

I don't think McDonald's et alia are just going to pay the extra money in labor costs. I think what you'll see is the cutting of payroll. Automation. So, it'll be a good news/bad news deal. Good news, you're all getting raises. Bad news, we don't need all of you anymore. Customers will be ordering at kiosks and we'll contract out cleaning of the place so Jimmy, Tina, Juan, Raymond, here's your final checks.

I'm much more sympathetic to wage stagnation at places that previously offered decent careers. Places where the CEOs make millions and millions but pay their lowest wage earners peanuts. Since you mentioned you do work for Microsoft, that's one of the places. They hire contractors like yourself so they don't have to inherit a worker and benefits. Same for Apple. One my my former interpreters from Afghanistan made it to the USA - legally - and works as a contractor for Apple. They pay him a shitty wage in Northern California. I pick on these two companies because their politics are generally to the left yet they do the same things they accuse the evil corporate people on the right of doing. Pay their people crap while the top rakes in millions and millions in total comp.

I'd like to see companies that don't have such a pay gap between CEO and lowest paid worker actually get some nice tax breaks. Do something to encourage companies to pay people more.


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Originally Posted by darthbob88
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrystud
What do you say to the McDonald's shift manager who has toiled away at Mickie Ds for 8 years and is now making $15/hour? I mean, what do you say to him that Johnny Hamburger, aged 15 is coming on board at $15 after the law passes?

Congratulations, you're getting a raise to $20/hr? Dude's got more responsibility than the new fish, so the only way McDonald's is going to keep him is if they offer him more pay as well.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:57 PM   #36
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I can have it both ways simply because wages are based on a percentage. So employee x makes the company this much money, he gets y% of the profits. So trying to bumble thru your example here because it is not exactley clear since your mashing things togther. But simply minium wage goes ups, Profits goes down. To return profit to proper amount prices must go up. so now the guy making fifteen is still in the same place as he is getting the same percentage. Now if you just had straight inflation, and no other cost flucation, his wages would go up. But you have brought all the minum wage workers up to his percentage and in turn brought him down by his wages not increasing by the same percentage as the mnium wage workers.
Except that now that prices have gone up, so has the value this dude generates for the company, and with it the amount he should be paid.
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What does you living in seattle have anything to do with it. It still dosen't change that people are asking for a free handout so they can live where they want to live. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be living there plain and simple, not expect the goverment to force a building owner to take a cut in profits.
It matters because I speak from experience as somebody who has navigated the King County rent market more recently than you have. The cheaper places to live, where you think these people should move, are Central District, Columbia City and North Beacon Hill, which are still Seattle. Not the actually surrounding areas of Bellevue, Redmond, or Kirkland, which were too expensive for me.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #37
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So, essentially everyone working there is going to get a raise of some sort. I'm not sure how that meshes with their ability to keep prices low. Jobs at McDonalds are not meant to support someone for life. And, yes, I realize some people still attempt to make a living working in fast food.
Not everybody, just the ones who're going to be resentful about losing their wage advantage as the new people. The executives making 6 figures don't need a raise but would probably get one, the middle management making high 5 figures could but probably won't need a raise.
E: Also, in case you didn't know, the reason people try to make a living in fast food, and retail, and whatever other job you're going to sneer at, is that there aren't enough jobs for them to make a living somewhere else. Until Trump brings back more factory jobs, they have to make a living where they can, and sometimes that means McDonalds.
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I don't think McDonald's et alia are just going to pay the extra money in labor costs. I think what you'll see is the cutting of payroll. Automation. So, it'll be a good news/bad news deal. Good news, you're all getting raises. Bad news, we don't need all of you anymore. Customers will be ordering at kiosks and we'll contract out cleaning of the place so Jimmy, Tina, Juan, Raymond, here's your final checks.
They can do most of that now, and guess what? Automation isn't good enough yet. They're still going to pay that extra labor cost because they still need that human labor to do the job.
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I'm much more sympathetic to wage stagnation at places that previously offered decent careers. Places where the CEOs make millions and millions but pay their lowest wage earners peanuts. Since you mentioned you do work for Microsoft, that's one of the places. They hire contractors like yourself so they don't have to inherit a worker and benefits. Same for Apple. One my my former interpreters from Afghanistan made it to the USA - legally - and works as a contractor for Apple. They pay him a shitty wage in Northern California. I pick on these two companies because their politics are generally to the left yet they do the same things they accuse the evil corporate people on the right of doing. Pay their people crap while the top rakes in millions and millions in total comp.
Actually, I'm getting $75K as a contractor and a possibility of getting hired as a proper blue-badge MS employee, so I got nothing to complain about.
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I'd like to see companies that don't have such a pay gap between CEO and lowest paid worker actually get some nice tax breaks. Do something to encourage companies to pay people more.
No, we really shouldn't do this on a company-by-company level because that's too easy to game by changing what a company is. Something like McDonald's laying off everybody making less than 1/10th the CEO's salary, then taking them back on as contractors from a wholly-owned subsidiary staffing firm. Or cutting the CEO's salary to $1 (plus millions in stock dividends and other bonuses). This is a problem at the national level and across the board, and needs to be fixed at a national level.

Not to mention how big this tax credit would need to be in order to encourage companies to take on billions more in payroll. We already have one of the lowest effective business tax rates in the world, this would more or less zero it out.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:17 PM   #38
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Except that now that prices have gone up, so has the value this dude generates for the company, and with it the amount he should be paid.
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What does you living in seattle have anything to do with it. It still dosen't change that people are asking for a free handout so they can live where they want to live. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be living there plain and simple, not expect the goverment to force a building owner to take a cut in profits.
It matters because I speak from experience as somebody who has navigated the King County rent market more recently than you have. The cheaper places to live, where you think these people should move, are Central District, Columbia City and North Beacon Hill, which are still Seattle. Not the actually surrounding areas of Bellevue, Redmond, or Kirkland, which were too expensive for me.

You skipped over a part there darth, just because prices have risen dosen't mean profits have risen. So If a company is raising prices to compensate for a hike in minium wage, then profits have stayed the same even though prices went up.

Here is something I want you to think about. Mcdonalds sells the franchise to owners, instead of the stores being owned by coroporate. On average a single store brings in 175k of profit. So now if the mcdonalds has 10 full time minum wage workers, jacking minimum wage up 5 dollars an hour, that cost the the store 100k. Profits of the store are now 75k. So now where is the money for giving all the people working above minium wage a raise. Its not there as the owner still needs to take home his money too. And before you can even start, I'll stop you. The owner does get to take home 175k. except guess who finances the store when it is slow, the owner, guess who pays for break downs and other cost that are normal operating budget, the owner. So while yes you see the owner taking home a lot but he has to hold back a lot of that for bad times.

There is where the confusion in lies, you think moving to a different part of seattle is moving to a cheaper place to live. If you take notice I kept saying people want to be fianced to live in the seattle area, so if you can't hack it in seattle move to olympia, or any other city in the surronding area that is cheaper. And I don't want to hear that is unfair to expect them to move. I know a lot of people that have moved states, sometimes all away across the country, because the area they were living in was to high, vs the wage pay for their job skills.
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:04 PM   #39
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Source???

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We already have one of the lowest effective business tax rates in the world, this would more or less zero it out.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:43 PM   #40
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I was chatting to some girls from a call centre once.
They were bitching about their salaries.
Apparently the company had hired a couple of new starters and was paying the new people more than the experienced people. The experienced people asked why and were told that was the new award for call centre people.
Why don't we get that?
You weren't hired as call centre people and aren't covered.
At least one of the girls resigned, applied for her old job, and got it as a call centre operator.
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