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Old 07-14-2017, 11:34 AM   #1
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Other Sears managers to earn thousands in bonuses while laid-off workers get no severance

Sears managers to earn thousands in bonuses while laid-off workers get no severance


http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topst...A&ocid=BHEA000
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:05 PM   #2
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And in other news, Water is still wet, The Sky is still blue, and gravity still works.

Welcome to the America created by the MBA's in the 21st century. A land were the golden rule has been replaced with "Screw everyone else to get what you want"!!!
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:34 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
And in other news, Water is still wet, The Sky is still blue, and gravity still works.

Welcome to the America created by the MBA's in the 21st century. A land were the golden rule has been replaced with "Screw everyone else to get what you want"!!!

Before you get all mad and blame sears and blame excutives you may want to do some reading. The employees severance was a unsecured creditor. Which means they get paid last. So secured creditors, such as landlords, banks, suppliers get paid first because it is their legal right. It is also more logical to pay other business first, so as they are not put in a place of hurt, and have it cause a ripple affect of other businesses having to lay people off.

As for excutives getting bonuses, it has absouletly nothing to do with employees not getting their severance pay. Even if the company didn't pay the bonuses to the executives the employees still wouldn't get their severance pay because of the way the law is set up.

Remember this is a court forced resturucture so sears basically has no say in what is done with their money. The court is the one that decides who and what will get paid. So if you want to blame any one you need to blame the courts, and you need to blame the employees for not making sure their severance pay was a secured debt.

Also basically sears is doing everything in its power to stay in business, and remain sears. If the company can be saved there is still a good possibility those employees will still receive their severance. So while you think they are screwing everyone over, they are actually trying to save things so the employees will still receive what was promised to them.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:56 AM   #4
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From a moral point of view, when a company is letting a large number of people go, but it still paying bonuses to managers and execs, it looks immoral!!! There is not other way to view it. If they are not getting severance, why can't the CEO give up is Golden Parachute?

It the same thing that happened with GM back in 2009. Wagoner ran GM into the ground, and was FIRED! But after costing thousands of people their jobs, and Ten's of Thousands in the Metro Detroit Area (myself included), who never worked for GM, never had any finical connections to GM, were just caught in teh fallout of what they did, and Yet Wagoner still got in $10,000,000 retirement package! That is immoral, it is so far beyond immoral there is not a word in our language to describe it!

The same was True for ITT Tech, the government forced them out of business, but that does not remove the responsible of the 60 day notice, WHICH IS THE LAW!! Now can you tell me none of the Execs of ITT Tech had to give up any of their "contract' items? Can you show me any proof they did not get them? And before you say they were required by their contact, the 60 day Rule if also part of the LAW, so it carries just as much weight!
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
From a moral point of view, when a company is letting a large number of people go, but it still paying bonuses to managers and execs, it looks immoral!!! There is not other way to view it. If they are not getting severance, why can't the CEO give up is Golden Parachute?

It the same thing that happened with GM back in 2009. Wagoner ran GM into the ground, and was FIRED! But after costing thousands of people their jobs, and Ten's of Thousands in the Metro Detroit Area (myself included), who never worked for GM, never had any finical connections to GM, were just caught in teh fallout of what they did, and Yet Wagoner still got in $10,000,000 retirement package! That is immoral, it is so far beyond immoral there is not a word in our language to describe it!

The same was True for ITT Tech, the government forced them out of business, but that does not remove the responsible of the 60 day notice, WHICH IS THE LAW!! Now can you tell me none of the Execs of ITT Tech had to give up any of their "contract' items? Can you show me any proof they did not get them? And before you say they were required by their contact, the 60 day Rule if also part of the LAW, so it carries just as much weight!

Your using examples that do not apply. For one each business is going to be different depending on what was required of them by the courts and and what type of bankruptcies they went thru. Also your comparing Canadian law to American law again their is no application to compare them.

What would look more immoral the company breaking a contact with an excutive, or to pay an employee with basically a promisesary note. You think its horrible but I feel it would look much more horrible if the company didn't honor its contracts.

Also the so called bonuses they refer to are actually retainers to keep them working at a failing business, instead of jumping ship while their chances of getting out unscathed are good.
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:38 AM   #6
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Excuse me, but WTF? First off where I am referencing any Canadian Law? Next it would look more immoral to not give a wealthy person more money rather then throwing a working class individual under the bus? Really you think such? We have very different idea of what morality is!

Next they have to screw over other to keep people working at a failing company. First question why is the company failing? Could it be the actions of the same Managers and Execs that are now getting bonuses or retainer or what every you want to call it, to stay while the company is falling apart? Again, we are back to the questions about what morality really means to you and to American business in General!!!!!!
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
Excuse me, but WTF? First off where I am referencing any Canadian Law? Next it would look more immoral to not give a wealthy person more money rather then throwing a working class individual under the bus? Really you think such? We have very different idea of what morality is!

Next they have to screw over other to keep people working at a failing company. First question why is the company failing? Could it be the actions of the same Managers and Execs that are now getting bonuses or retainer or what every you want to call it, to stay while the company is falling apart? Again, we are back to the questions about what morality really means to you and to American business in General!!!!!!

Your not refencing candian law. The story is about sears Canada. You are trying to compare American companies to a Canadian company.

Dosen't matter where the money is going, it is wether or not the company honors its contracts. Contracts are more important as they are asigned agreement. So again it would be more immoral to not follow thru on your signed agreements.

How are these executives screwing over anyone, Do you not understand they cannot just hand money over to the employees. That is not how things work. The executives can take the retainer and stay on, or they can quit and their retainer will then go to pay the secured creditors. Every single executive could turn down the money and the employees still wouldn't see a dime until all the secured creditors were paid.

So lets see you think my morals are screwed up because I think the company should honor its contracts. Your morals are more screwed up because you want to hand the money over to people that have no legal right to it, If we just stop honoring contracts your going to see one messed up world.

But anywise you say poor employees, But yet it is their own fault for not making sure their severance was secured. So you think we should pay people for their own idiocy. Remember if it is not secured or in a contracr their is no obligation for the company to give the money to anybody other than they want to. So you need to look at where the blame should really be.

their not keeping all the upper staff, just the ones they think can bring the business back to life. So yes the company had cleaned house on the people that screwed up. Another thing on that did you ever think the company wouldn't be where it was if it was not offering severance pay, benefits( to current and retired employees) . All those things the company was not required to offer, but it did even though it was hemmoraging money. So seriously you want to keep blaming the company but it good welefare to employees is part of the problem.
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Old 07-16-2017, 05:47 AM   #8
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But anywise you say poor employees, But yet it is their own fault for not making sure their severance was secured.

How could they do such? Other then via a Union? So should every worker and every company in American create a Union so every one can be a contract protected employee?

Quote:
So you think we should pay people for their own idiocy.

Why not, they did it for Rick Wagoner, and every other unless CxO who ran an company into the ground, and then still demanded there Golden Parachute after being fired, some even have there GP protect from a bankruptcy via a contract. Personally, if you want a bankruptcy protect clause in your contract, why would they hired you to so such a job? Because such is like saying I am not really qualified, and a sure I am going to screw up, but I want the money regardless of my ability to do the job.

Quote:
Remember if it is not secured or in a contracr their is no obligation for the company to give the money to anybody other than they want to. So you need to look at where the blame should really be.

Yes the great lack of morality in U.S. business, MBA's and other that run businesses. Hell in was on this very board in 2009, which someone, might even have been you, that defended Rick Wagoner getting his Golden parachute after being fired for being a failure at this job with the idea of "he is use to living a affluent life style, taking that away from his woudl just been too cruel". So were is this Magic Line, that one you cross it, you never have to feel any pain again, even the pain you cause?
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Old 07-16-2017, 06:06 AM   #9
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How could they do such? Other then via a Union? So should every worker and every company in American create a Union so every one can be a contract protected employee?
Well, less "create" than "join", but yes, everybody who works for a living should be part of one big union.
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
How could they do such? Other then via a Union? So should every worker and every company in American create a Union so every one can be a contract protected employee?

Quote:
So you think we should pay people for their own idiocy.

Why not, they did it for Rick Wagoner, and every other unless CxO who ran an company into the ground, and then still demanded there Golden Parachute after being fired, some even have there GP protect from a bankruptcy via a contract. Personally, if you want a bankruptcy protect clause in your contract, why would they hired you to so such a job? Because such is like saying I am not really qualified, and a sure I am going to screw up, but I want the money regardless of my ability to do the job.

Quote:
Remember if it is not secured or in a contracr their is no obligation for the company to give the money to anybody other than they want to. So you need to look at where the blame should really be.

Yes the great lack of morality in U.S. business, MBA's and other that run businesses. Hell in was on this very board in 2009, which someone, might even have been you, that defended Rick Wagoner getting his Golden parachute after being fired for being a failure at this job with the idea of "he is use to living a affluent life style, taking that away from his woudl just been too cruel". So were is this Magic Line, that one you cross it, you never have to feel any pain again, even the pain you cause?

No, no need to create a union. It is once again called self responsibility. The employee needs to find out if the benefits that are offered to them are secured or not. Not just assume that because it is offered to them , that it will always be availiable to them. Then if it is not secured don't make that your safety net cause it may not be there on day. Your acting as if a company has to offer a severance pay. They don't it is a courtesy. I'm willing to bet all the employees got a phamelet when they were hired that explained that to them.

Now I'm sure you will scream that even though it was employee's fault for not securing what they thought was automatic because management still got their bonuses. But on the flip coin as you say the employees worked for that and should get it. Well so did management they worked for those things, so what gives you the right to say we should strip away the things that these people worked for and give it to theses people who actually had no legal right to that money. Fair is fair, its not well lets be unfair to these people because they happen to make more money.

As for the rest of your post once again completely different matter, completely different laws. Your comparing oranges and apples.

I will answer this question for you though. A CEO get bankruptcy protection because they are going in blind. A company may make a good front that they are stable, but in reality are in shambles. Privacy clauses prevent anyone from telling a CEO this, so he could be walking into a distaser that can't be saved. Also your questioning why would a person secure the benefits that are promised to them. Because of exactely what happened to the employees, they did't secure their severance. So to question bankruptcies protection while at the same time screaming its not fair that these people didn't get what was promised to them is a bit silly.

Also forgot to mention sear Canada is no longer it own entity. It is under court rule. Sears has no say right now. So where your pointing the finger of blame is in the wrong place. Sear is simply following the laws in place and the judges orders. So as much as you want to blame the big wigs, and the corps, this fall onto the American people as their elected officials put these laws in place. Just think on that one for a minute.

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Old 07-16-2017, 08:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by iron_warmonger
How could they do such? Other then via a Union? So should every worker and every company in American create a Union so every one can be a contract protected employee?
Well, less "create" than "join", but yes, everybody who works for a living should be part of one big union.

People don't need a union. A union is a waste of money at this point and time. All the things that unions supposedly fight for are already laws. The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves. Gee you mean people should read that phamelet that you get when offered benefits, including the fine print. What you can legaly secure your benefits, that are protected under law all on your own. The horrors someone should actually be concerned for their own future. Yep we should defiantly hire a company to do that for them.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:07 AM   #12
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Well, less "create" than "join", but yes, everybody who works for a living should be part of one big union.

People don't need a union. A union is a waste of money at this point and time. All the things that unions supposedly fight for are already laws. The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves. Gee you mean people should read that phamelet that you get when offered benefits, including the fine print. What you can legaly secure your benefits, that are protected under law all on your own. The horrors someone should actually be concerned for their own future. Yep we should defiantly hire a company to do that for them.
1. Laws protecting workers are only there because unions fought for them, and continue to fight against the companies these laws inconvenience. Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore.
2. I was unaware of any laws mandating a 15-30% wage increase.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:03 AM   #13
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People don't need a union. A union is a waste of money at this point and time. All the things that unions supposedly fight for are already laws. The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves. Gee you mean people should read that phamelet that you get when offered benefits, including the fine print. What you can legaly secure your benefits, that are protected under law all on your own. The horrors someone should actually be concerned for their own future. Yep we should defiantly hire a company to do that for them.
1. Laws protecting workers are only there because unions fought for them, and continue to fight against the companies these laws inconvenience. Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore.
2. I was unaware of any laws mandating a 15-30% wage increase.


Ya ok darth. Most of what a union used to do is now done by lawmakers. They are outdated. And a waste of money. They did their job and their usefulness is now gone. The only people that now benifit from unions are the ones that would get fired or are not a good enough worker to get a raise on their own.

For this refer to what I said above.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:20 AM   #14
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People don't need a union. A union is a waste of money at this point and time. All the things that unions supposedly fight for are already laws. The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves. Gee you mean people should read that phamelet that you get when offered benefits, including the fine print. What you can legaly secure your benefits, that are protected under law all on your own. The horrors someone should actually be concerned for their own future. Yep we should defiantly hire a company to do that for them.
1. Laws protecting workers are only there because unions fought for them, and continue to fight against the companies these laws inconvenience. Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore.
2. I was unaware of any laws mandating a 15-30% wage increase.


Actually darth to go further into this you are not aware of any laws that raised wages. Really how about a 50%hike then. Seattle passed a 15 dollar an hour for fast food workers. Oh dam that was a law and their was no union. Also on that note liberals are always pushing for higher wages, so again lawmakers doing the job of the union. One thing that is true though is that union workers do make higher wages, but that is because companies that are union are moreally selective about who they hire. Making it harder for people to get a job, that goes against everything you preach. So that alone should make you say unions are bad. I would keep going but I'm guessing this is another one of those issue that you could be shown that unions are the worst thing ever, but you would still try to argue they are good.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:45 AM   #15
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Ya ok darth. Most of what a union used to do is now done by lawmakers. They are outdated. And a waste of money. They did their job and their usefulness is now gone. ...

Voting Rights Act. Think about it and get back to me.

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... Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore. ...
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:29 AM   #16
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1. Laws protecting workers are only there because unions fought for them, and continue to fight against the companies these laws inconvenience. Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore.
2. I was unaware of any laws mandating a 15-30% wage increase.
Actually darth to go further into this you are not aware of any laws that raised wages. Really how about a 50%hike then. Seattle passed a 15 dollar an hour for fast food workers. Oh dam that was a law and their was no union. Also on that note liberals are always pushing for higher wages, so again lawmakers doing the job of the union. One thing that is true though is that union workers do make higher wages, but that is because companies that are union are moreally selective about who they hire. Making it harder for people to get a job, that goes against everything you preach. So that alone should make you say unions are bad. I would keep going but I'm guessing this is another one of those issue that you could be shown that unions are the worst thing ever, but you would still try to argue they are good.
Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:37 AM   #17
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Voting Rights Act. Think about it and get back to me.

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... Saying workers don't need unions anymore is like saying you don't need an umbrella anymore. ...

What are you even talking about now. What does minority voting have to do with a union.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:55 AM   #18
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Actually darth to go further into this you are not aware of any laws that raised wages. Really how about a 50%hike then. Seattle passed a 15 dollar an hour for fast food workers. Oh dam that was a law and their was no union. Also on that note liberals are always pushing for higher wages, so again lawmakers doing the job of the union. One thing that is true though is that union workers do make higher wages, but that is because companies that are union are moreally selective about who they hire. Making it harder for people to get a job, that goes against everything you preach. So that alone should make you say unions are bad. I would keep going but I'm guessing this is another one of those issue that you could be shown that unions are the worst thing ever, but you would still try to argue they are good.
Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.

Already covered this darth. Union companies hire better employees as it is to hard to fire people once they are in the union. So the higher wages is due to having the best of the best, not because of what the unions have done.

Also I would like to ask are you actually in a union. Also do you talk to people outside of your circle that in are unions. I'm really curious to know what they say. Because everyone I have talked to say the dues are not worth the benefits, the only person that gains from a union is the one that should be fired.

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Old 07-17-2017, 01:06 PM   #19
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How's that $15 an hour min wage working in Seattle?

You think having your union argue for you to go from $37 to $40 an hour will work out for you?

It didn't work out for many workers when businesses just decided to shut down rather than continue to be held hostage by unions.

I had an uncle work at a Peterbilt plant. His union got greedy and wouldn't agree to a contract so Peterbilt just shut it down. Now he spends his days pissing and moaning about how he can't find a decent job. He was making $30 something an hour with a high school education. Went from living in a relatively nice house with a pool to living in a trailer park.

I asked him if he had it to do over again, would he support the union's position and he said, "hell no, we don't have damn jobs now!". I said, "Well, not getting a big raise is better than the facility shutting down, I guess". He's vehemently anti-union now. Says they lie and are a bunch of crooks. He's a slow learner.

Unions had their place back in the 1900s when work could be a dangerous place. Now, we have laws for all that stuff. Like the horse buggy, they outlived their usefulness. Now, they are just lobbying organizations for the democrats. And, job killers.
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Actually darth to go further into this you are not aware of any laws that raised wages. Really how about a 50%hike then. Seattle passed a 15 dollar an hour for fast food workers. Oh dam that was a law and their was no union. Also on that note liberals are always pushing for higher wages, so again lawmakers doing the job of the union. One thing that is true though is that union workers do make higher wages, but that is because companies that are union are moreally selective about who they hire. Making it harder for people to get a job, that goes against everything you preach. So that alone should make you say unions are bad. I would keep going but I'm guessing this is another one of those issue that you could be shown that unions are the worst thing ever, but you would still try to argue they are good.
Well, for one, lawmakers keep legislating minimum wage increases, which is different from the wage premium I referred to. Raising the wage floor to $15/hr is all well and good, but I'm making $37/hr, so that doesn't do me a whole helluva lot of good. A union, on the other hand, can tell my employer to get bent until I'm getting at least $40/hr. (Granted, I don't need $40/hr, which is why I'm not loudly agitating for it, but it'd be nice.) I suppose that point would have been better set against your argument that "The rest of what unions do is stuff people could just do for themselves", because that article proves otherwise.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:34 PM   #20
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Unions had their place back in the 1900s when work could be a dangerous place. Now, we have laws for all that stuff. Like the horse buggy, they outlived their usefulness. Now, they are just lobbying organizations for the democrats. And, job killers.
I will direct you to my previous posts for the "We have laws for all that stuff" point, and the study I linked previously for "job killers". They do not kill jobs, they do in fact get higher wages for jobs.
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