Trayvon Martin

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by 12941

Well, there is really a problem with the "Stand Your Ground Law" as it is implemented.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/30/whe...ssa-alexander/

Regardless of the outcome of the Martin-Zimmerman Case, I think the law should be reviewed and the process of how the Police and the local District Attorney's Office deal with such claims should should be as well.

The problem isn't with the law, it's with the way it is interpreted and the fact that most people don't really understand the law. I am a Florida resident and CWP holder, and I don't fully understand the law. I personally use common sense, and wouldn't just shoot someone because he yelled at me. I would still try to avoid a situation that would put myself in danger, in the case of Zimmerman, no I don't think I would have left the car. However, if I am in a situation where I feel my, or my family is in danger, I want to have the law on my side if I need it. I don't think it should be the wild West....but I also don't think it should be where only people willing to break the law to begin with have the ability to use a weapon.

In my opinion, the CWP class is too short. It was 4 hours, and most of my class was the instructor telling stories about things that related to being a gun carrier. I think it should be two parts, the first being simply firearm handling. Florida law only requires the instructor to watch you fire ONE round at a range. One of the women in my class had literally never touched a gun before taking that class, she fired her ONE shot, and a few weeks later she can carry a weapon. Scary.

The second part of the class should be covering ALL the laws pertaining to being a gun carrier. Go into detail about home defense and SYG defense. How the law works, when you can and when you can't use your firearm. Go into detail about specific situations. If I am confronted going to my car and someone has no weapon but grabs my arm and tells me to give them my keys, can I pull my gun? Can I shoot my gun? How about if he has a knife? Can I then brandish my gun or shoot? I honestly don't know the answer to those questions. Again, personally I would use common sense. But that means I have to assume every other CWP holder also has common sense. Clearly Zimmerman doesn't....even though I still feel his situation should fall under the SYG law.

[12941]

Originally Posted by sebrebc

The problem isn't with the law, it's with the way it is interpreted and the fact that most people don't really understand the law. x x x

In my opinion, the CWP class is too short. x x x

I would have to agree

[12941]

http://gma.yahoo.com/george-zimmerma...opstories.html

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by 12941

http://gma.yahoo.com/george-zimmerma...opstories.html

I read his ruling and it appears to me that the judge never accused Zimmerman of attempting to flee the country, he said that it was feasible that Zimmerman could flee if he wanted because of the passport and access to money. But he never actually accused him of trying to flee. He just said that it appeared that way, and it was possible for him to do. Regardless, if the judge felt that Zimmerman was going to flee, then why grant him bond a second time? It's like saying "Yea, I know you were going to flee had I not stopped you....but I'm going to let you out again, this time don't try to run.".

Obviously it did appear that he was going to flee, but the fact that he didn't kind of disputes the idea that he was going to. Plus he was electronically monitored last time as well.

One thing that I found interesting in the judges ruling. He said that since he was freed on bond pending the case, he lived in an undisclosed location OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but it appears that Zimmerman was out of the country. So either he was allowed to leave the country, he never left the country, or he left and THAT is why his bond was revoked. Again, if that's the case, then why grant him bond again? That makes no sense.

I try to ignore the NEWS articles as much as possible, because they have been generally biased one way or the other. So I read transcripts and actual case documents, those are unbiased. But, not being a lawyer, some of the documents are slightly over my head.

[HoratioBrock]

Originally Posted by infantrystud

I guess we'll see won't we?

The narrative you wish to believe is the crowd that gets stirred up by Sharpton and Jackson (and Spike Lee tweeting out Zimmerman's address) are all peaceful folks. And, they aren't.

If Zimmerman is found not guilty - or worse, the charges are dropped - there will be riots. Care to make a wager on it?

Ok, you say they aren't. Which group of Sharpton folks from Sanford were wild and unruly?

Sure, I'll send my check to an internet alias known as Infantrystud, at which address? Seriously?

There was nothing but peaceful informative movement in Sanford. Accept it or don't, it's the reality.

[infantrystud]

I'm talking about when this is over and if Zimmerman is found not guilty. And, I think you knew that but were trying to redirect. Anyway...

Gentleman's bet. I don't want your money. Donate it charity. If I win, you donate to Wounded Warriors. If you win then you get to pick where I donate. Donate the amount you're comfortable with and I'll do the same.

Originally Posted by HoratioBrock

Ok, you say they aren't. Which group of Sharpton folks from Sanford were wild and unruly?

Sure, I'll send my check to an internet alias known as Infantrystud, at which address? Seriously?

There was nothing but peaceful informative movement in Sanford. Accept it or don't, it's the reality.

[HoratioBrock]

Not trying to redirect, I really did think your post was thoughtless. To pretend that each and every decision that goes against a black guy will be Rodney King (which happened once) all over again I find ridiculous.That being said, Chicago Firefighters and PR Director Tim Obrien along with IAFF local 2 is all about wounded warriors so you are going to win this bet anyway brother!

You lose please also donate to wounded warriors. Periodically someone will disrespect my service to my city, a city which I have always been a part of and love, I accept it. I know what I give to the city of Chicago, I know what I'm about. The things that I do not many would sign up for. People die and are grievously injured on my job. That being said, I know that every single service member would, they understand sacrifice and service. They know what it means to leave your family and potentially lose limbs. We are all better off as a country for their efforts and if I have to sell 10,000 t-shirts for their efforts I will gladly do it.

[sebrebc]

I'm a little confused about something in the new evidence. From what I read, the FBI has determined that Zimmerman is not a racist and his actions were not based on race.

This comes from the investigation the FBI made into possible hate crime charges.

So does this mean the FBI has completely closed the book on any potential hate crime charges, or is the investigation still on going and he may still be charged with a hate crime?

[CoyoteStarrk]

This thread has been going for 4 months and has 507 replies.

I now declare this thread an MD legend!

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by CoyoteStarrk

This thread has been going for 4 months and has 507 replies.

I now declare this thread an MD legend!

It's a great debate....or court room drama, if you will. I know I'm borderline obsessed with this case, maybe not so borderline. I think this is a very interesting case because there are so many elements. It's almost a mini-story of many issues that we are dealing with in society today. It has gun control and gun law issues, it has racial divide/tension, it has corruption and conspiracy issues. The case itself is wrapped around many of the issues we deal with in society today.

Racial profiling: Is it real or is it a matter of prejudice towards a certain style of dress?

Gun Control: Should citizens be allowed to carry a gun on them without having any real investigation into their character or background?

Corruption: Will a police department twist evidence in a case to hide their sloppy work, or is the work not sloppy and it's just a matter of people who disagree with the legal findings upset because they are wrong?

Not that this case will answer any of those questions, on a societal level. But it does ask those questions, it forces us to look at our society, it forces us to look at ourselves. To me the case is much larger than Martin and Zimmerman, and that is one of the things that really intrigues me. Plus I'm a sucker for a good debate and court room drama.

[ruffrider]

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...205511766.html

No surprise the Judge that told it how he seen it (instead of how Zimmerman and his lawyer are trying to make him look) Zimmerman now wants to step down.

I'm sorry Zimmerman isn't the naive confused young man that his lawyer tries to make him out to be.
This Judge looked at everything in front of him including Zimmerman's own past and didn't buy it
Instead he gave Zimmerman a punishment fit for a man that sat and let his own wife lie to the court without blinking an eye and because of that they now want to paint this Judge as a bad guy

At the rate there going Zimmerman's want for a fair trial will make it only fair if he has a Judge that thinks everything he says or does is the word and act of god

[12941]

Well, it appears that Zimmerman is a lot of things besides being a killer

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...160900334.html

I'm sure now he wishes he followed the police's advice and stayed in his car.

[sebrebc]

This is really getting out of control with the media and their headlines. The vast majority of the headlines about this witness has the phrase "child molester" in it. Slightly misleading, they are 2 years apart, hardly "child molestation" as it is going to appear to those who read the headlines and not the articles. It should say "abused" or even "sexually abused". Child molestation gives the impression he was 18+ and she was much younger.

But it doesn't matter because most people don't read past the headlines anyway. There are reports now that Zimmerman contacted Terry Jones....and most of the talk back comments on these articles talk about how Zimmerman is clearly a racist because he wanted to contact a racist pastor. If they read the headlines they would see that Zimmerman contacted Jones and asked him to NOT hold a protest in his name.

It's to the point where people simply can't get the original headlines out of their heads, regardless to what actual evidence is out there. People still see Zimmerman as this frothing at the mouth racist who hunted down a sweet, innocent 12 year old boy who was minding his own business eating candy, and shot him in cold blood. Now they see that he is a child molester who gets all jacked up on prescription drugs, bets up cops, and slaps his wife in the face while lying to the judge as he is boarding a plane out of the country with a bag full of stolen money.

If I'm ever in a situation where I must shoot someone to save myself from bodily harm or death, I'm just going to shoot myself.....of course this is only if the other guy is black, because if I shoot him, I'll have to answer for every thing I have ever done in my past...and I'm sure someone out there hates me enough to say "Yup, he's made jewish jokes, he's a horrible racist".

[okraslayer]

Yet if you bring up the fact the "Child" had drug convictions or drug related incidents in his past then you are just trying hurt his character or you are bring it up because ( Drum Roll Please.....) You are racist....

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by okraslayer

Yet if you bring up the fact the "Child" had drug convictions or drug related incidents in his past then you are just trying hurt his character or you are bring it up because ( Drum Roll Please.....) You are racist....

Exactly. That's why, when discussing this case, I try to stay away from Martin's character, unless I am comparing the "evidence" between the two of them.

I don't think Martin was a "thug" or some hardened gang banger. I think he was a teenager who was doing what all teenagers do, fit into their crowd. I did drugs, I acted out, I dressed like my friends....I fit into my crowd, at the time. I've done some bad shit in my life, used girls, danced with coke, pills, weed, and drank. I got into fights and hated authority. I was a stupid teenager, and carried that into my early 20s. I'm now a business owner, have a successful full time job, my wife and I own two new cars and an 88 Mustang street/drag car, own two homes, and am raising a wonderful Daughter. I am never in trouble with the law, I am, for all intents and purposes, a model citizen. But I have a very checkered past....just like Martin and Zimmerman. Granted they both have had more serious legal issues, and I never filmed a fight for fun, or punched a cop or a bus driver. So while my "fun" may have been more innocent than theirs, I just don't believe that either of their character dictates what kind of person they are, nor do I believe it has any real weight on this particular case.

I think that both made decisions that ended up putting them in the positions they were in, yet I think they were both "innocent" to a certain extent. In the end, I believe Zimmerman's version of events because it's the only one that fits the evidence. And the most damning evidence is the fact that Martin had no physical marks on his body but Zimmerman did.

Everything else, the bus driver, the drugs, the cop, the cousin, it's all smoke and mirrors that distract us from the actual, proven, facts of THIS case. But people don't want to focus on the facts, they only want to focus on the things that back up their claim.

Martin supporters say Zimmerman was a racist, wannabe cop, with a history of violence and forcing himself on others.

Zimmerman supporters say Martin was a thug, druggie, with a history of violence.

I say the truth is, as usual, in the middle somewhere. Zimmerman got more involved in the situation than he needed to be, and Martin was angry that someone called the cops on him and wanted to teach him a lesson. In the end Martin didn't do anything that night that deserved death....but Zimmerman had no choice. You can't let someone bash your head into the ground right up to the moment of death before shooting him to stop him. He did what he had to do to stop Martin, and sadly it ended up in his death. Even if Zimmerman started the confrontation, which evidence says he didn't, Martin didn't have the right to smash his head into the pavement. A fight is a fight, if it was two guys rolling around on the ground that would be one thing. But once it became a fight to the death, it was inevitable.

[12941]

Originally Posted by okraslayer

Yet if you bring up the fact the "Child" had drug convictions or drug related incidents in his past then you are just trying hurt his character or you are bring it up because ( Drum Roll Please.....) You are racist....

You probably aren't racist, but blackening the memory of the dead for no reason is a bit low.
But, I agree, it wouldn't be racist, just low

[12941]

Originally Posted by sebrebc

This is really getting out of control with the media and their headlines. The vast majority of the headlines about this witness has the phrase "child molester" in it. Slightly misleading, they are 2 years apart, hardly "child molestation" as it is going to appear to those who read the headlines and not the articles. It should say "abused" or even "sexually abused". Child molestation gives the impression he was 18+ and she was much younger.

Correct, just slightly misleading.

Well, it does make him out to be a serial bully at the very least.
Preying on those younger than you (even if you are yourself a minor) doesn't say anything good about you.

Just one more and it makes it a pattern (probably not admissible during trial, but damning in the eyes of almost everyone else)

[superfly101]

I'm just going to say, since I've seen this case first hand:

1. Trayvon was neither tiny nor peaceful.
2. Zimmerman was losing the fight, whoever started it.
3. The facts of this case normally don't mean a damn thing to most people as it has turned into a big argument over whether the stand your ground is a good law or not.


I'm not going to debate over who is at fault. I just wanted everyone to know that the media is biased. I personally am undecided about the law and this personal investigation. All I know for sure is that Trayvon is not the innocent child everyone sets him out to be, but Zimmerman could still be the arrogant douche. Not sure anyone knows for sure....

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by superfly101

I'm just going to say, since I've seen this case first hand:

1. Trayvon was neither tiny nor peaceful.
2. Zimmerman was losing the fight, whoever started it.
3. The facts of this case normally don't mean a damn thing to most people as it has turned into a big argument over whether the stand your ground is a good law or not.


I'm not going to debate over who is at fault. I just wanted everyone to know that the media is biased. I personally am undecided about the law and this personal investigation. All I know for sure is that Trayvon is not the innocent child everyone sets him out to be, but Zimmerman could still be the arrogant douche. Not sure anyone knows for sure....

I think it is both, Zimmerman is an arrogant douche and Martin is not a sweet and innocent child.

Even though most people seem to think that if you support Zimmerman it means you hate Martin and love Zimmerman...and vice versa. I don't see it that way. I don't like Zimmerman, he seems like a power hungry douche. Having said that, based on what I know now, I believe it was a justified shooting.

[sebrebc]

Originally Posted by 12941

Correct, just slightly misleading.

Well, it does make him out to be a serial bully at the very least.
Preying on those younger than you (even if you are yourself a minor) doesn't say anything good about you.

Just one more and it makes it a pattern (probably not admissible during trial, but damning in the eyes of almost everyone else)

Yea, it's slightly misleading just because people tend to read only the headlines and picture a 28 year old Zimmerman molesting a 6 year old girl. Just like the pictures of Martin as a 12 year old are slightly misleading. The media reports of this case are generally misleading, on both sides, and are full of innuendo.